Radical unschooling and boundaries?

[Sarasvati]

I'm on a roll :lol.

Pondering RU and personal boundaries. As I'm discovering more and more how I caretake as a result of childhood abuse I'm looking at some parenting and radical unschooling thoughts in a new light. Sometimes I wonder if certain examples given in RU theory and also some parenting theories actually set our children up to expect caretaking and reinforce to us that allowing our boundaries to be violated is ok.

Gotta go whinging, but thoughts?

[Beatrice]

Can you give some more concrete examples? Because my interpretation of RU is that I need to have firm boundaries in place before we negotiate. It's a bit hard to discuss in depth without more of an idea of what you're referring to, though.

[Ceres]

Such a tricky question, but I think I agree with you, and that's the reason I don't take a RA approach with my DS. We live in a family, and we all need to take care of each others needs in a way that respects everyone.
I'll be interested to hear other's thoughts on this.

[Sarasvati]

Picking up after children, even though it's their belongings scattered all over the house. Some parenting philosophy dictates that it is actually our job as parents (which then falls to mothers primarily) to clean up if the mess bothers us. Or if children leave belongings outside then the reasoning is that we wouldn't just leave our partner's stuff outside to get rained on, so why leave our children's out? And I guess my personal journey right at this minute is unlearning my caretaking behaviours, so I probably *would* leave his stuff out! Because he is capable of caring for his stuff. Now I'm not saying leave a 3 year old's stuff out but at what age is it reasonable to expect that you are no longer the one who has to do the thinking in these sorts of situations?

I don't know if I'm getting across what I want to. I think many women are socialised to caretake and while in mainstream parenting (particularly the authoritarian and authoritative modes) kids may be MADE to pick up after themselves etc (although probably not so much boys) in alternative schools of thought often it is seen as just a normal thing for mothers (rarely fathers) to extend loving nurturance to their children even at the expense of themselves. I am preetty suree having read your posts you aren't like that Beatrice ;). However the Unprocessed Child raised a lot questions in me, and the occasional article or chapter I read has me querying the effect of (I guess not just radical unschooling but it IS often an extension of an AP upbringing) a certain child-rearing and learning mindset where the mother is encouraged in behaviours that are possibly harmful to her own state of being. Where abuse is normalised and women do the majority of housework and childrearing, and where women become aware of what is going on it must inevitably raise questions about what is a reasonable boundary to set with a child over household jobs, personal belongings, etc.

[Mud]

I think about this too (although I haven't read The Unprocessed Child). I can't accept the idea of being a housework slave because I'm a mother. I try to judge what is reasonable to expect from my children, and remind my 6yo before her mess gets too big. I also try to encourage cooperation (we'll sometimes do things together, sometimes do things for each other), and think about how I can improve my own attitudes to housework and make it more fun.

Sometimes it works out well, and I think we're getting there, but I have a long way to go. It's one of the few things my 6yo can get pissed off about (it also brings on occasional sudden bouts of tiredness). I do know how she feels, so I hope we can get over it together. I also had the tendency to be disorganised or inattentive as a kid (put something down, immediately forget where), so I empathise, and felt her preschool/kindergarten teachers were a bit harsh in their criticism of her for this sort of thing.

My partner is actually more inclined to pick up after the kids than I am, but after seeing me trying to encourage a cooperative approach, he now tries to get them involved.

I don't really see it as boundaries, but I suppose expectations about responsibilities are a similar thing. With my 6yo, I think I'll be doing the thinking and reminding for a while yet.

[Beatrice]

Hmm, yes I see what you mean. I think with the housework example, that it comes down to understanding what is developmentally appropriate for our kids. For instance, if a child doesn't grasp the idea of cause and effect (I have no idea when that kicks in, btw :lol) then something like your example of caring for their stuff is totally different for a child than for a (neurotypical) adult. Like I said in the housework thread, I think that our kids' seeming indifference to their possessions is because we just have sooooooo much stuff. If you don't have much, then what you do have is precious and you take care of it. If you live in abundance, then I think it takes the development of more sophisticated thought processes to get to the point where you can grok taking care of stuff for more abstract reasons. We treat consumption so casually that it's perfectly logical for a kid to think that if something is broken or destroyed by negligence, then it can just be replaced, or that they won't miss one kind of toy because they have everything else in their toybox to play with. So if we're working in harmony with the child's development, I see it as having the choice to live simply and therefore the consequences of not looking after stuff become much more logical, or we can live in abundance and not begrudge the fact that our view of what is important is not immediately obvious to the child. I'm not a fan of ev psych, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that as a species, we have not evolved to value hoarding vast quantities of possessions. I think children's development puts value on the concrete over the abstract, and our hyperconsumerist lives (I'm talking on a global and a historical scale) have moved care of possessions from the concrete to the abstract through sheer volume...

This is where I see it as extending an invitation to my kids to share my own understanding of what it takes to keep the house full of stuff which I've chosen to accumulate under control. At the moment, it involves rather a lot of divesting myself of that stuff :lol I've come to realise that my kids would probably be just as happy if we got rid of about 80% of the contents of the play room, so who am I keeping it for, really? :lol

I don't think I've necessarily addressed your point very clearly, but I really ought to go to bed now :uhh

[Beatrice]

Oh, and I think that my energy shapes how my kids respond to that invitation. If I'm honestly extending an invitation with no expectations and no agenda behind it, if I'm honestly okay with them being autonomous being who can choose to say no, then I'm not putting barriers in the way of them saying yes. I can take responsibility for my feelings about it (and the language I use and the tapes which are playing when I think of myself as somebody's "slave", for example), and I can take responsibility for changing my environment to be more closely aligned with how much effort I'm prepared to put into cleaning up after other people.

I write from the perspective of somebody who doesn't have an unequal relationship, though. My partner does at least half of the picking up and doesn't put any expectations on me about how much housework etc I should be doing. He's learning to come round to my perspective about how much the kids should be doing as well (with the result that they tend to actually do what he asks occasionally now, which is much less frustrating :lol).

[Mud]

I like your approach. It makes sense. I struggle to help my 6yo face getting rid of toys, though. It's a slow process. Anything long-ignored seems to become treasured once the prospect of giving it away comes up. Any gift is hard to part with (it's special because whoever gave it to her). Maybe if we do my stuff at the same time ...

[Sarasvati]

I think that's the prob, Beatrice, a lot of women are living in unequal relationships and they put a lot on themselves when they decide to homeschool as well... and then a lot of what we read as natural learners and just as conscious parents in general reinforces caretaking stuff :(. And if you don't have healthy boundaries yourself it's hard to see where that caretaking begins!

[Beatrice]

I was thinking about it last night, and I think that when I feel resentment around letting them say no, it's because I don't have strong boundaries at that time. So in a way, this kind of parenting can be healing because it forces you to really know exactly where your stuff ends and their autonomy begins.

[Sarasvati]

How do you enforce your boundaries without violating their autonomy though? I can often get through using NVC but sometimes I just don't have the time/patience for that process.

Anyone else have thoughts to share on this?

[keztol]

I'm struggling with this sort of thing too - DS (7) is very bad at just leaving things where they fall. Honestly he will walk past something that he doesn't even need, pick it up and then put it down somewhere completely different. Clothes lay where he takes them off etc. I hate nagging but it gets to the stage that either 1) I keep reminding him to do it, 2) I pick it up myself or 3) DH goes off his nut about the mess and yells, rants & raves and then makes DS tidy up by threatening to smack..

Atm I am "coercing" by telling him we can't do the science experiments he wants to do unless he has cleaned the table off. I've been asking him for several weeks to clean the table. So he's doing it - grudgingly, and with lots of arguing about "why can't we just do the experiment somewhere else" etc.

I know there's got to be a better way, and I've read all sorts of things about how eventually they will just magically start doing it, but what do I do to stay sane in the meantime???!

I agree with a previous poster who said that a lot of the problem is too much stuff. DS is a hoarder though - he doesn't even want to throw out scrap paper!

BTW, I am about to go out and give him a hand with doing it but am asking for advice in the meantime!

[Ceres]

In my house I'd just say I can't tolerate any more mess so can you please fix this one up before getting anything out. I don't mean it as a punishment or anything, I'm just letting him know what's ok and not ok with me. I probably have a lot lower mess tolerance than a lot of people but it really causes me psychological discomfort to be surrounded by rubble with no clear surfaces. I'm not a clean freak by any extent (as I write this I can barely see the loungeroom floor) but we all have to be aware of each other's needs here and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be responsible for their mess.

[keztol]

Ceres - what do you do if he doesn't clean it up and continues to get stuff out?

[Ceres]

Ask him again to do it.

[Aurora]

Sarasvati, as you probably know from my posts on JB I struggle with this aswell. I got such different feedback from my questions on JB, than I did from a radical unschooling yahoo list... and there are several reasons for this. 1) JB is a feminist site/forum 2) Not many JBers are radical unschoolers and 3) abuse is such a big topic there right now, so many of us are examining our childhoods and relationships, and are sensitive and on guard to prevent caretaking.

I am trying to find some middle ground with DS. I found value in both sets of feedback and things were about as clear as mud afterwards, so I figure I have to construct a unique philosophy for my own family using the help I've already had, gut instinct, my own history and weak spots, and my kids personalities. I would love to give my kids maximum freedom to determine what is best for themselves, but I do think there are times when I have to step in and guide more actively than usual. Sometimes this is to protect my health, the health of my toddler, or the health of DS himself. I think I am still somewhat vulnerable to falling into a trap of caretaking, so for now, I need to be (lovingly) firm and make my boundaries *very* clear. Perhaps more so than people who aren't at risks of falling into this trap.

I think so the average radical unschooler, what I am doing seems to go against the RU philosophy. Eg DS is going through a stage where he is pinching bottoms, lifting my skirt etc. I believe this is because his Dad has modelled it for him,and I have modelled that my ''NO''s can be worn down, and/or they have little value. Now I am trying to rebuild the value of my ''NO''s and the respect that's essential in our relationship. I am doing this by respecting DS, but also myself... eg I say '' No. Please don't do that'' and if he does it again, I say ''NO!'' more loudly and firmly, and move swiftly away. I have explained to him at a different time that it's not appropriate, and I don't like it, but it hasn't stopped the behaviour.

On the radical unschooler list, it was suggested to me that he might not be role modelling his dad at all, he might simply be playing, it's very common for kids to play in their Mum's skirts and go through a bottom pinching stage. But I think, in my unique circumstances, that it's not as simple as innocent play, and I am more sensitive to it than others might be. It brings back bad memories for me and makes me feel unpleasant at a time it's crucial for me to building up my self-esteem and boundaries. Therefore I have a stronger reaction to it, and refused to tollerate it (but am still respectful in the way I speak to DS.)

I agree that there is no way to have one blanket set of rules with unschooling/radical unschooling. Some of the things I do may be well considered un-radical but I feel they are really important for me, so I can be a strong, positive parent with healthy self-esteem. I also believe I am modelling healthy boundaries for my kids, so they too can value themselves and where they draw the line.

[Ceres]

Interesting post Aurora :)
I'm with the "modelling healthy boundaries" crowd on that situation, and when you view the behaviour in your particular context, it makes sense.
What was the RU approach to managing that situation?

[Janet]

Boundary obsessed here. ;) RU sounds nice a lot of the time but then when it comes to nittygritty and seeing it in action I don't like it as much. I'm just not prepared to privilege any members of the family over each other in daily life, adult or child, and I see responding to children in an age appropriate, biologically driven way as very different from how RU seems to pan out. We're a community in our family. :)

[cgull]

What do you mean by 'biologically driven', Janet?

[Janet]

I mean that it is appropriate to the biology of a human baby to pick it up when it cries (if you had put it down :lol), to have it close to you at all times and to breastfeed it ecologically as evolution has determined.

[cgull]

And in what way is that different from what you see in RU? (out of interest)

[Janet]

I don't see RU as not responding, I see it in some cases as having a lack of boundaries, privileging some members of the family over others in ways which are detrimental to the family and the members. I'm just saying it's appropriate to respond totally to babies who have nothing but needs however in a community, as we grow, we have to acknowledge that members' needs and wants are all important not only the children's. So children don't run the show any more than adults do although as an adult I reserve the right to make ultimate decisions (about some things) where I perceive my life skills and experience to be greater than that of the child in question. I'm always prepared to discuss, explain, rethink and engage with the children about it, it's not that I'm a fascist. I've seen too many families who use RU as the label when it just looks like crap boundaries to me with unhappy children who have all this pressure on them because they think they're in charge of the family and stressed parents trying to keep their children happy all the time rather than helping them learn to live in a community with safe boundaries for adults and children. Babies only have biologically determined needs, older children have needs but also can develop desires and that's fine when we all acknowledge the right of all members to have a peaceful life and loving support of their desires when possible.

[cgull]

Thank you Janet, I really like the way you've explained that. :)

[Janet]

Oh good because I nearly bust a foofer valve trying to get it out. :lol

[rynalee]

Boundary obsessed here. ;) RU sounds nice a lot of the time but then when it comes to nittygritty and seeing it in action I don't like it as much. I'm just not prepared to privilege any members of the family over each other in daily life, adult or child, and I see responding to children in an age appropriate, biologically driven way as very different from how RU seems to pan out. We're a community in our family. :)

I think there is SO much misunderstanding about what RU really is, and some of it comes, like another poster said, from people CALLING themselves RUers, but in reality, they just have no boundaries at all and the kids "do whatever they want". This ISN'T radical unschooling! It is more like you're describing: it involves discussing EVERYBODY'S needs and working out solutions together where no one runs roughshod over everyone else, and no one forces their way onto someone else. I've read many times on RU boards that someone's freedom to do what THEY want, ends where someone ELSE'S freedom begins. There really are boundaries in RU, it's just that they're not forced on someone else. You can maintain your own boundary, but not in a way that forces someone else to do or not do something, I guess.

I've read Sandra Dodd, for instance, give great examples of where a child is hitting a parent and the parent, thinking they're being a "good RUer", lets them get away with it, because they're supposed to be able to do whatever they want. She blasts them for it (in true Sandra Dodd style!). It is NOT ok for this to happen and she says she would definitely say a clear, "NO! I do NOT want you to do that" and hold their hand to make them stop, or something like that.

Anyway, my brain is muddled today. I just wanted to say, be careful not to assume that Radical Unschooling = No Boundaries.

The one thing I DO have a problem with about some people's version of RU is where they say "I chose to have a house & children, so its my responsibility to clean it." My version? I chose to have children, but they chose to create the mess! LOL..... I don't force them to clean up, but we do chat about what would be helpful, how I'm feeling, what my/their needs are, and some solutions. I often make requests for help, and I occasionally lose it when they don't! :oops On a good day, I ask them if they're willing to do it, and if so, when they think they might be able to do that.

We have lots of if/then conversations, too. If you could give me a hand to do this, then I'll have more time to do ____ with you. It's not manipulation; it's a statement of how things are. Then again, sometimes I just stop what I'm doing!

It's about working together, listening to each other, being real, and finding solutions that meet everyone's needs as much as possible. It's about communication and teamwork (not forced) as much as possible.

Sorry - I'm raving on and I need a coffee!!:cool

[rynalee]

I don't see RU as not responding, I see it in some cases as having a lack of boundaries, privileging some members of the family over others in ways which are detrimental to the family and the members..... I've seen too many families who use RU as the label when it just looks like crap boundaries to me with unhappy children who have all this pressure on them because they think they're in charge of the family and stressed parents trying to keep their children happy all the time rather than helping them learn to live in a community with safe boundaries for adults and children........... the right of all members to have a peaceful life and loving support of their desires when possible.

I think the cases where RU is seen as a lack of boundaries, are perhaps not actually RU at all, but a bad application of the philosophy. As with all things, these cases are often the ones people remember and stand out the most, but they're not a good example of RU. RU is meant to be mutually respectful. It's really not about trying to keep kids happy all the time, hey. And giving kids all the power is way too much power for anyone to have. I can't think of one RU advocate who would say a family with child dictators is even close to RU at its finest. Often, on message boards, when these kinds of examples are given, the poster is helped to realise that they DO need to have boundaries and work with their children to find mutually agreeable solutions. Yeah, that's it. It's 'working with' not 'doing to'. That way the result hopefully will be, as you say, "a peaceful life and loving support of (everyone's) desires when possible".

Yay! :lol

[Demeter]

Awesome thread!

I see I'll have lots to learn and explore here as well as JB :eager

[Ayla]

I'm loving this discussion on boundaries :)


I don't force them to clean up, but we do chat about what would be helpful, how I'm feeling, what my/their needs are, and some solutions. I often make requests for help, and I occasionally lose it when they don't! :oops

May I suggest replacing the word 'help' with 'contribute'? Helping puts the responsibility onto you alone, whereas contributing puts the responsibility to everyone to pitch in. Works well with partners too ;)

[Sarasvati]

You can maintain your own boundary, but not in a way that forces someone else to do or not do something, I guess.

What if maintaining a boundary IS forcing someone to not do something? For instance in the hitting example, if my child REALLY wants to hit me and I don't let them, I'm forcing them to not hit me :lol. I often say "I get you're angry, and it's ok to let that out but not in a way that hurts me. I'm not cool with being hit. Please stop". Sometimes that helps the situation dissolve, other times she gets more mulish and keeps hitting. At that point I have to remove myself or block her hitting. But either way I'm enforcing my boundary and she's being forced to stop doing something.

I love the saying "your rights end where mine begin". I guess the trick is showing children how to respect where other people's boundaries begin, and yes I think the basis of that is respecting THEIR boundaries from the earliest possible age. We're talking a lot about respect and how to help others out atm. Yesterday Kira did something and I thanked her, she asked why and I said "because you doing that really made this easier for me, and I appreciate that". I'm trying really hard to show her appreciation and respect, and I'm finding that we're relating a lot better. When we're on our own anyway (just me and the girls).