How can we tell that natural learning "works"?

[Beatrice]

This is something which popped up for me when I read a recent post of Keztol's in another thread, about something being "proof that natural learning works". I totally don't intend to pick on you, Kerrie :lol It's just that it illuminated something which has been an issue for me and probably others - how do we actually measure natural learning as successful?

In my case, it took me years to get out of the mindset that natural learning was working if it meant that my child's interests coincided with something which might have come out of a school classroom. It was a hard one for me to get over, because B does NOT work the same way as the students that classrooms are set up to serve. She's very visual, and still learns much more from a TV show or even a podcast than from words on a page. She's not at all interested in producing written work like projects or reports (altho she occasionally starts one out of a vague sense of obligation, never to finish :lol), and it wasn't until she started using workbooks that I ever really felt I had anything traditionally "schooly" to show. And yet, she was still learning :)

Six years down the track I can totally trust that B is learning just as much now, as she sits next to me watching anime, as she would be if she'd decided that she'd rather be writing her novel, or drawing manga, or riding her horse, or socialising with friends, or walking over my parents' property, or reading a book, or building with Meccano, or any of the other things she does which don't look like school. And I still think, although she doesn't agree with me, that she's getting more out of any of these activities than she is out of her workbooks ;) So how do we know it works, especially through those days and years when it doesn't look like much is happening?

[Demeter]

I'll be watching this thread with interest!!

It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

[Beatrice]

I think the difficulty is one of trust - that we can't "prove" it works until it has worked, IYSWIM :lol But having a child on the cusp of young adulthood who is pretty obviously smart, self-motivated, interested in the world around her, independent, trustworthy, and connected to her family is a pretty good indicator that whatever we've done so far is working pretty well. But then, ask me again in 6 years ;)

[jikki]

I'd be interested in following a discussion on this. I wonder about the long-term success of natural learning (not from a critical perspective, I'd love it more if I could just trust it more, I think!). I would love to know outcomes from adults or older teens who were educated at home via natural learning. I wonder if they found themselves to be well prepped for their future endeavours (careers, uni, whatever), or if they at all wished that they had done more 'book/text learning'?

As someone just dabbling in natural learning, I seem to have a stereotype/unconscious belief thing floating around that natural learning is great for those who aspire to certain careers or paths - like artists, musicians, therapists, computer programming even, yoga teachers etc. It most probably helps produce confident, emotionally healthy, passionate individuals too. But if you want to be something 'serious' (white collar? traditional?) like a vet, a nurse, a teacher, an architect or whatever, then you'd better stick to texts and workbooks! Whether it's at all accurate or just a warped perception, I wouldn't know, but it's something that floats around at the back of my head from time to time, and influences the kind of learning we do at home.

I don't necessarily want my children to be doctors or rocket scientists, I just want them to be as ready and prepared as possible for whatever it is they want to do! I wonder if natural learning is successful over the long term?

[irishwillow]

This is soooo interesting!!! It's such a struggle with our school-based conditioning to trust this. However, as my girls get older, they are interacting more and more with kids of a similar age or older and their knowledge of "things", ability to communicate with peers and adults AND young ones, confidence, maturity etc seems to be better than the majority. My 12 year old did a project on lamintis, colic and founder in horses as she is obsessed. When the vet came out to check a horse, she was blown away by her knowledge and offered her a part-time job at the clinic. We had to tell her she was only 12 ( they can't work there until 16 because of workplace health and safety). She is tall, but it was her manner that caused this to happen...she is still a 12 year old in all the important ways. School was diabolical for this one...I would have an extremely troubled child if she was there.
My 10 year old writes books, one at present is 14,000 words.There is so much dialogue and humour too. She loves journal writing and drawing too.
Following ones dreams is what we are supposed to do as adults to be healthy, so why should this be any different for children.
Somebody once said to me, but what if you have an Einstein on your hands? Einstein was HSed.
The interesting thing is that if they suddenly decide at 17 they want to go to uni etc, there are courses in particular things they will need for pretty much anything...they will be ready, will absorb it like a sponge and no dramas trying to drum something into a brain that isn't ready or loathes it.
There was a pile of 15 year olds a while back that had no formal maths training and were taught the entire maths curriculum to that point in 30 hours...it was easy for them as the concepts were something they were intellectually ready for.
Personally we do a bit of a mix of learning styles as that works for us. We skip stuff in workbooks that are stupid, repetitive and frankly sometimes wrong etc. But generally we follow a lot of self-directed learning.
My 12 year old gets herself up at 5:00 am most mornings and does ALL the horse stuff without ever being asked. She cleans the huge rat cage without ever being asked...her own sense of responsibility to these animals directs her where she needs to be.
Children are AMAZING!!!!!!:eager:eager:)
Susan

[irishwillow]

P.S I have met a family of HSed natural learners. One at the age of just turned 23 is a successful jeweller, glass beadmaker etc with her own studio in Maroochydore and she teaches as well...she is supporting herself and living away from home. She was accepted into adult jewellery classes at 15 because of her maturity and passion. Her sister is an alternative therapist. They have an amazing relationship with their parents as well.

[Gelato Mama]

To me there isn't so much a need for trust as there is a need to better define 'working'. The outcomes that signify success would be those skills, character attributes and habits that best ensure his survival and flourishing. And those I can observe everyday and over time.

Are his actions, thoughts and habits moving him towards autonomy? Are his days full of wonder and joy and leave him with a feeling of purpose and worth? Are his interactions with the world serving to sharpen his critical thinking skills? Do his days afford him the time to create in his own mind the scaffolding required to extend his understanding towards a metacognitive whole-view? Is he using these skills on me?lol!

If so content is virtually irrelevent. I don't believe for a second that pure mathematics is going to be learned from cooking. I believe whole heartedly though that if his sense of purpose leads to mathematics and his metacognitive skills are strong he will know or know to explore how best to apply himself to that end. What one learns and the ability to learn are two very different things. The ability to learn, in my book, means that exposure to opportunities to learn is paramount and pathways in the brain that are forged by challenge are important. Some challenges are self initiated and some require another perspective.

Output isn't irrelevent because it comes under the purposeful banner, one can create in order to experience and then evaluate and attitude to output is of great importance too.

I think that as a NL parent it is up to me to do the work that supports this part of his journey and I can gauge if it's 'working' because I can see that little by little he is moving his life away from mine and that we are both cool with that. What he chooses to do with his life (career for example) is none of my business and by setting up a contingency that emphasises a particular learning approach just because he might want to be something someday could undermine the value of those 'higher order' skills that I believe go a long way in ensuring his long term success at whatever he chooses or is faced with.





p.s. sorry a bit scattered, having a shocker, will bbl to make sure I said something lol!

[Beatrice]

I think that as a NL parent it is up to me to do the work that supports this part of his journey and I can gauge if it's 'working' because I can see that little by little he is moving his life away from mine and that we are both cool with that. What he chooses to do with his life (career for example) is none of my business and by setting up a contingency that emphasises a particular learning approach just because he might want to be something someday could undermine the value of those 'higher order' skills that I believe go a long way in ensuring his long term success at whatever he chooses or is faced with.

I think this is really well put :)

I agree that a lot relies on the definition of "working" so it's great to get discussion happening on that too!

[cgull]

How could it not?

I mean, if it doesn't 'work', how did anybody learn anything before they had someone to teach them?


Not that that necessarily makes it easier to trust, in a given moment, that my child will definitely learn what he needs to...

[Beatrice]

That's the logical way to look at it, cgull :lol But it doesn't always help us with the inculcated beliefs that learning doesn't happen without teaching, and that we know what learning ought to look like :blueroll

[Sarasvati]

Great discussion, don't have much more to add! My first thought was that I could see it works as Kira learned to read without being "taught". But then I realised how guilty I was of prioritising reading as something schoolworthy. I do use it as something to shut other people up before they even start on the "but how will they...?" I suppose the only thing I can say is that as long as I can see she has independent interests and keeps asking me questions, then I know it is "working".

[Beatrice]

Yeah, I guess B taking so long to read really helped me overcome the feeling that learning had to look like school. And I guess I'm still guilty of it in that I have a thread about K's ongoing adventures in learning to read and not in her development in imaginative and co-operative play, or her new interest in colour-coordinating her clothes and interrogating them for encoded gender meanings :lol

[keztol]

Geez, I go away for a day and I get picked on ;P

I guess it really depends on what your goals are as to how to prove it works. My use of the "proof that it works" was partly tongue in cheek that he was producing something "schooly" by his own desire. However it was partly serious, not that he was producing a poster, but that his love of learning was there enough to decide to do something that wasn't required, and totally unexpected.

My main goals are that he can get to adulthood and be secure in himself, be happy, be a functioning member of society and retain his love of learning. I think if that love of learning is still there he will do anything he wants to do.

If he decides he wants to do something that requires higher mathematics, than I think he will be able to learn what he needs to when he needs it 1) because he can see the need for it and 2) because the love of learning is still there.

Unfortunately the ultimate proof is still many years away :) The day to day proof is that he is eager to learn new things (of his own choosing mainly!) and is a bright, happy kid. I read a quote the other day that I've printed out - it may have even been on here, but it was:

"Robert Louis Stevenson Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap but by the seeds that you plant"

(I hope this post didn't sound defensive - I realise you were just using my wording as an example!)

[Beatrice]

Glad you didn't feel like I was picking on you :lol

There's a fabulous article by Philip Pullman in the Guardian, Common Sense has much to learn from moonshine (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2005/jan/22/schools.wordsandlanguage), which I read a few years ago and which encapsulates what I try and aim for in my kids' education.


It's when we do this foolish, time-consuming, romantic, quixotic, childlike thing called play that we are most practical, most useful, and most firmly grounded in reality, because the world itself is the most unlikely of places, and it works in the oddest of ways, and we won't make any sense of it by doing what everybody else has done before us. It's when we fool about with the stuff the world is made of that we make the most valuable discoveries, we create the most lasting beauty, we discover the most profound truths. The youngest children can do it, and the greatest artists, the greatest scientists do it all the time. Everything else is proofreading.I reckon that what you're talking about, jikki, comes under the heading of proof-reading :)

[Butterfly]

For me, that learning isn't the property of a school from the ages of 5 to 17 - that it starts at birth & has a natural, and individual progression. That my babe doesn't ned to "finish school" at age 17 - he will simply be learning whatever he has gravitated towards at that time.
If he has decided to be a nurse he will be more prepared for that than if he was schooled as he will spend time on that interest rather than the HSC units he might score best in.

[cgull]

...he will spend time on that interest rather than the HSC units he might score best in.

So true, Butterfly.

It all becomes a self-perpetuating cycle where 'someone' decides what 'should' be learned and then tests whether those things have been learned, without asking whether the child is actually prepared for the future. I'm not sure that there's really any definition anywhere of what 'works' means or how to determine the effectiveness of any educational approach.

In fact, I read somewhere that a school or teacher in America was once sued for failing to teach the students effectively, and the lawyer got them off on the grounds that there was no definition anywhere of what a school is actually supposed to accomplish :(

[jikki]

In fact, I read somewhere that a school or teacher in America was once sued for failing to teach the students effectively, and the lawyer got them off on the grounds that there was no definition anywhere of what a school is actually supposed to accomplish :(

:rofl, but also, :doh

[irishwillow]

I love this...it makes so much sense. Thanks

Quote:
It's when we do this foolish, time-consuming, romantic, quixotic, childlike thing called play that we are most practical, most useful, and most firmly grounded in reality, because the world itself is the most unlikely of places, and it works in the oddest of ways, and we won't make any sense of it by doing what everybody else has done before us. It's when we fool about with the stuff the world is made of that we make the most valuable discoveries, we create the most lasting beauty, we discover the most profound truths. The youngest children can do it, and the greatest artists, the greatest scientists do it all the time. Everything else is proofreading.

[Ceres]

I think it's pretty normal to have occasional panic moments about whether or not natural learning "works". We're so well indoctrinated to believe that school = education. I feel pretty confident at the moment because my DS is well ahead of where he'd be expected to be if he was at school now. I imagine it would be a little bit different if I had a child who hadn't met the minimum expectations of a schooled child (ie kids who are later starters for reading and so on). I'm just really happy with how he learns and his natural curiosity about everything around him lately.

[anaturallearner]

John Holt said that unschooling isn't the rejection text books and workbooks, it is more about HOW and WHY we use them. If we use them when we need to, then they are simply learning resources.

Natural learning isn't about rejecting useful resources - it's about using resources appropriately. :-)

Gelato Mama's description of what describes 'working' is so spot on... Who cares if our short term objectives (finish that chore/page/project/game) is thwarted if our children achieve the outcomes she listed in her post?

What our children chose as their careers is definitely out of our control and is indeed none of our business. How can we plan for those careers when our children are little? We need to make sure they can survive and thrive and leave the rest to them.

So, how do I know NL is working? When my children show they are growing in confidence and independence. When they bring me interesting things to share. When they demonstrate they know more about something than I do and can do things I can't. When they are happy to think differently from the crowd, or from me, and confidently express their thoughts. When they question the status quo and make up their own minds.

Why is it so difficult to trust? It took me years to trust. Ultimately I realised that I just had to observe without prejudice to witness that learning is happening all the time. I'd been trained by my parents, my schooling, and society not to notice it!

Perhaps what we need to do (and what helped me) is to put up a poster of our educational and developmental goals for our children (in our words, not drawn from some educational curriculum!)

What we do as adults isn't hinged on what and how we learned as children - it has as much to do with who we are, where we are and in what times we live. My children aren't ambitious and that has made a huge difference in their adult lives. Only one is competitive, and that makes a difference too. Opportunity and access to resources makes a huge difference. These are things we could be dwelling on instead of worrying about if our children are learning what we think they ought to be.

My 22 year old finds it difficult to do some of the things he wants to because he doesn't have the skills and ability. He's impatient to do it now, not wait until he's paid for a uni or TAFE course to get him there in 2-4 years time. He finds his own way and usually gets there. Sometimes he thinks he is failing, other times he feels more confident. He's not willing to compromise on his lifestyle to reach his goals - he'd rather modify his goals! Or wait. Is this because he learned naturally as a kid? Nah - I've met schooled grads who are much the same. In fact, once they hit their twenties, there isn't a lot of difference between this wonderful schooled, unschooled, homeschooled, naturally learned young people. That is to say, I really don't think not learning in any particular way has much of an impact on how they achieve their goals. Method isn't as important as personality. But then again, maybe my kids attract free thinkers with 'have a go' attitudes as friends. Not many of their friends believe that to learn you have to do it in a particular way, even the ones that have become teachers. :-)

cheers
Beverley

[GreenGully]

I still find myself feeling like he is learning more when I see him demonstrating really obvious skills, like adding/subtracting money, or reading a tricky word. I've had to remind myself that there have been all sorts of things that he has been focusing his energies on lately, in the midst of some very challenging behaviours. Lying, bargaining (also threatening), testing boundaries (even becoming violent with me, sigh). It is all learning and I when I try to see the progress, I DO see it in there.

[Beatrice]

I was reminded of this thread watching K and B and DH making moebius strips and then cutting them in half and in half again and speculating and theorising about what that would do and why, without either of the kids feeling self-conscious about being expected to know the right answer or put on the spot or any of the things that I probably still would feel in that situation. They were playing with the world and trying to discover how things work and having a damn fine time in the process. And I contrast that with how I felt about being taught concepts in science and maths class which I didn't quite grasp, and how the result was a painful self-consciousness and intellectual paralysis in the face of other people's expectations about what I was supposed to have learned. So while I can see that natural learning "works" in that K sat down after Christmas and started reading chapter books for the first time and is now obviously a completely and effortlessly fluent reader despite never having a formal reading lesson in her life, I think I value demonstrations of their intellectual freedom and flexibility a lot more than those individual schooly achievements.

[anaturallearner]

Beatrice used the term 'expectation' and I think that lies at the heart of our lack of confidence or trust in natural learning. I've been doing lots of work on expectations in the last 18 months and seeing how they easily trip me up and confuse and distract me. For a very long time I've been focused on 'realistic expectations', asking others to have these when considering this question of what children should or could be doing. Realistic expectations for me are based on a general understanding of the nature of children/people at that age and stage of development as well as taking into account the personal nature, abilities, disposition, temperament and personality of each individual. All very logical and sound, except that I was still battling doubt (even with adult children who obviously display the 'success' of unschooling, home education, learning naturally, etc!)

Obviously we're not going to eliminate expectation - it is necessary part of the dreaming, planning, doing, reflecting, celebrating cycle of learning - but we can reduce our attachment to expectation. That's what I've learned in the last half of this year and the more I practice becoming detached to expectation the greater my trust (security, general sense of well-being, joy) has grown.

[Ceres]

That's an excellent point, Beverley. What our children learn (or how they learn) can be so very different to what we had pictured!