how radical are you?

[Aurora]

I know this topic has been done to death on some other forums, so I hope there isn't a collective groan once I post this! But parental regulation vs maximum autonomy for the child is one of those classic debates in unschooling and will eventually come up here anyway so I thought I'd get it out there straight off the bat!

So! Do you class yourself as a radical unschooler, or an unschooler? If you regulate your child's activities, which ones?

Although we don't really live by ''rules'' I wouldn't define myself as a radical unschooler, not from my knowledge of that term, and not at this stage. I'll briefly cover my approach to the following.

FOOD- I buy the groceries and I buy pretty healthily, so DS has complete autonomy regarding food at home. I don't stipulate when he can eat, or in which order he eats. Cereal or fruit at dinner time, meat at breakky, I don't care, because it's all decent food. Occasionally we'll share sugary treats, and he'll want to overload on them... but I've not yet felt it necessary to say an outright NO. Even at the tender age of 3 he is really open to negotiation at home, and if I chat about things with him, he generally gets it and agrees ''Eg- how about we just have one more, and then put the rest away for later? Your body might get sick if you eat too much of this.''

However, when we're out, I do say no sometimes. DS sometimes asks for sweets when we're standing at the supermarket checkout, and if he's eaten something decent beforehand I might agree that he can have a sweet, but not if he hasn't eaten anything substantial yet. Often he doesn't have much for breakky, then we'll do a morning trip to the shops for groceries and he will ask for junk. I'll say ''You haven't eaten anything healthy today, so I don't think that's a good idea.'' Sometimes he will have a meltdown about it but other times he is happy to have a banana from the grocery bag instead.


BED TIMES- We have a routine (or rhythm) of an evening- dinner, bath, pjs, and gentle tellie or dvd/books before bed, but as of WHEN he goes to sleep, that's his call. He will ask for his dummy and come and climb up onto my lap when he's tired, falls asleep soon after and I transfer him to bed.

TV- Nope, we don't limit tv either. However, admittedly, he watches a fair bit of tv these days (now that we have a new bub) and I don't sit down and talk about it with him like I should. Hopefully this stage will pass though and we'll be back to enjoying more of a variety of activities together again.

Safety is one of the few things that is non-negotiable in our place. Seatbelts must be worn in the car, helmets must be worn on bikes, no playing in the kitchen around hot things, toys must be picked up from doorways so noone trips over them etc. We haven't really experienced any issues in these areas that I can think of... DS seems to grasp why we ask him to do these things, because we've always explained to him in age appropriate terms... eg ''Let's hold hands crossing the road, cars can be dangerous''.

Sometimes he'll object to moving his toys from the doorway, especially his train set if he's spent some time building it. But as soon as I explain that someone could trip over them and get hurt, and suggest an alternative spot for him to play and/or help him rebuild the end of the track so it stays in the room, he's fine.

How about at your place?

[bella]

Hmmm, I tend to think that I'm not very radical. But I think that's because I compare myself and us to families around me who are quite radical! Having a larger family makes it more difficult to go with the flow I've found. I'm more into routine with six kids than I was with two or three. It's just plain easier to be the authoritarian when the children out-number the adults. It might be laziness on my behalf, falling into the habit of being 'boss' because it is easier than negotiating all day long.

Things I regulate are: meals - we all eat at a certain time so the kitchen isn't a continual disaster area, though snacking in between times isn't regulated if it's just fruit etc. We drink water most of the time, eat certain foods at different times of day, etc - we just do it and no one really questions it, so it doesn't feel like a control issue. 'Schoolwork' - most of the kids do their maths books most days, followed by other stuff they're working on - writing a story (DD1), violin (DDs 2 and 3), etc. I tend to limit screen time by distracting them with a meal or outdoor activity if it's getting too screen-focused around here. I prefer they wear shoes when we go into town, or at least take a pair in the car. I tell them when they need to grab a hat when it's sunny and pretty much insist they wear one. We all have set chores each day, and they need to be done before any screen time etc. These are rotated and chosen by each of us, so it's not a huge issue. The big kids ask to use the phone or 'net. We have a bedtime where everyone heads off to their rooms after teeth, toilet, drink routine. Some have lights-out after a goodnight-time and others read or chat. Overall, it's fairly laid-back because we have the benefit of time, without the demands of school. So the routines we do have, I don't think are unreasonable.

Overall, I guess we're fairly radical compared to most families out there just because of general lifestyle choices like extended breastfeeding, non-vaxing, diet, home ed etc. I think we're 'normal' till someone points out to me (directly or by being very mainstream) that we're quite off the beaten track. :)

[Beatrice]

I've relaxed on being radical (or tightened up? :lol Who knows!). Part of the reason I no longer identify myself as a radical unschooler is because I moved to having some limits imposed to make our family work more harmoniously together, but partly also because I don't like being bound by other people's definitions.

I'm still pretty radical in comparison to anyone who isn't a radical unschooler, though, I think ;) The biggest difference is probably that we do now have screentime limits. I moved from limiting TV hours to turning it off altogether about 2.5 weeks ago now, and I'm enjoying the results. My kids are pretty sensible about TV: although they watched more than I'd prefer (but then I don't watch any so my tolerance level is pretty low) they didn't watch it endlessly and uncritically. It was mainly because *I* was using the TV (and my computer, although I'm not willing to give that up completely!) as a way of not having to interact with them. They would look for my attention and if they didn't get it would turn the TV on out of boredom, and then I could think to myself, "Oh well, they're occupied now, I can check forums etc", and it would all go downhill from there...

Other than that, I don't regulate sleep or food, impose chores, or tell them what they have to wear or, if I can help it, do/not do. We do have the odd rule here and there, like "no food in the living room", which I've imposed to lessen the chaos, but I prefer to avoid ruling by diktat. Apart from anything else, it doesn't work ;)

[arunaway]

i think its so important for people to find out what works for them and their family rather than putting themselves under immense pressure to "be a particular label". So i really appreciate Beatrice's comments.

that said i dont "regulate" but do play a very active role in what happens around here. The phrase i often use is this style is "the most hands on way of being hands off".

dd (6) makes her own choices on things, but it still often involves negotiating as it given her age it often relies on us also. For example she does not like being the last one going to sleep. Thats fine because i stay up late to work often but if im exhausted we have to work things out. Mind you although she occasionally does the late night movie marathon while playing with dolls, she has generally been sleeping around 8 to 9pm.

she chooses her food and i ask her what she wants me to buy before i go shopping, though it is true i prefer to shop alone this usually does not happen. We have financial restraints more than anything.

I still have been known to put on the heavy guilt trip if i dont like what she is doing which i am trying to shift on... (eg. you mean you are going to have that for breakfast, do you know how many numbers are in that???).

instead i try to be proactive like offering a healthier option that she likes as well.

the one point of contention here is TV. We dont have one. Dd has a personal dvd player and we go to the dvd shop once a week and library once a week so she is very well stocked... but having read heaps of unschooling stuff i think it could add to our lives.

dp does not agree and is still very anti tv.

at the moment its not an issue because although dd asked for one once she forgot about it just as fast... mainly because we get any tv programs she is interested in on dvd.

but it is something that im sure will come up again and will take much negotiating between dp & dd...

arun

[Quickening]

I'm not a big fan of labels. I'm always surprised at the need to prefix labels to everything, but I can see how it is an easy way to classify stuff and quickly find groups of people who identify with a label that shares many issues that you may personally identify with.

It does irk me when people get too hung up on labelling and even worse, people who misappropriate labels and justify it until the sheeps come home with wondrous logic that only themselves can see.

I identify our family as being natural learners. Some things that go on could be nicely categorised away under the radical umbrella. Stuff like my son's creative tropical island poo art :lol, the fact that our children don't have set routines or bedtimes, that we ask our children for their opinion on stuff that most adults wouldn't dream of asking their children, and stuff like having no curriculum or structure to learning that even vaguely relates to those of school. Our children get to decide how they learn, and what happens to their bodies, they wear what they like but then again we don't shop at all-pink girl sections and all-dark boy section shops, we give them a real choice from shops that don't compartmentalise clothes and toys into gender stereotypes.

But then again, when we insist on seat belt wearing etc some people seem to see that as "forcing" something upon our children. We do not physically force our children to wear seatbelts, but then again we don't go driving off if seatbelts aren't on. The car stays where it is if the children decide to not wear their seatbelts after gentle discussion and explanations, or suggestions that they read a book or bring a favourite toy with them.

We also have a 3 year old who is a bolter and drastically different from his sister in personality and comprehension even when she was his age. Sometimes we pick him up or hold his hand to stop him from running onto the road when he can only see and comprehend that the park is in his sight. No thought or consequence for the dangers of the road (even with reminders). It is a developmental thing and he is already starting to grow out of it as he begins to recognise roads and the quick appearance of cars around corners. Some people would classify that as not radical unschooling, but then again maybe those people only have one child of similar personality to our first child. Or maybe they just stay home until their kid grows out of that stage so they don't have to put a limit upon their kid running out onto the road.

[SandraDodd]

-=-i think its so important for people to find out what works for them and their family rather than putting themselves under immense pressure to "be a particular label". -=-

-=-But parental regulation vs maximum autonomy for the child is one of those classic debates in unschooling and will eventually come up here anyway so I thought I'd get it out there straight off the bat!-=-

I brought those two quotes here because they're kind of foreign to me, in a way. Yes, I've been in such discussions for a long (long) time, but the way these are worded both seem limiting. It's like making a game out of a real-life question, to give two choices and say "which?" Like "Would you rather be a monkey or a dog?" or "Do you like gold or silver?" It depends. Are there trees and lots of food? Where am I? Gold to wear, or to spend?

And so...
-=-immense pressure to "be a particular label"...-=-

Do you want to put immense pressure on yourself to be an unschooler, or do you want to blow it off completely?

Neither. I want to understand the principles that make natural learning work, and make choices that are consistent with what I think will help my children be happy and thoughtful and comfortable and curious. I want them to continue to learn and to have opportunities to make decisions.

-=-parental regulation vs maximum autonomy-=-

Why would a child with two living parents want "autonomy"? As to "regulation," I don't like the term. It has to do with rules. If people make decisions on the basis of rules (either to follow them, or reactionarily to decide they don't "have to" follow them), that's about rules.

I like to live by principles instead of by rules.

This forum seems obsessed with seatbelts. My kids want seatbelts on more than I ever would have. I grew up without any, and my kids were born after the law required them, so they've told me to put a seatbelt on lots of times, but I haven't had to "make" them. There have been times on long trips when someone was out of a seatbelt to move around in a van, or to lie down and sleep, but we always are extra careful in such times to be aware of where padding is around them, and not to be out of seatbelts if it's icy or rainy or dangerous that way.

Principles vs. rules: http://sandradodd.com/rules
Argument against "regulation" (against the use of the term):
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation

[Currawong]

What an interesting conversation. Thanks everyone for your input. Sandra, I am especially valuing your input in this forum. There have been discussions such as these before, but you bring a whole other slant to them that is refreshing and nourishing. Thanks!

[Kezia]

I would like to be more on the radial end of the spectrum, but in practice I'm towards the "traditional", conservative, conventional end. Why? Partly lack of courage/confidence (tendency to buy into all the yes-buts eg "yes but my child would kill himself if I let him eat what he wanted" or "yes buy my child would play on the computer 24/7 if we didn't have any restrictions"). Also partly because I'm yet to adjust to having three children, and I find it hard to be as gentle and non-coercive as I would like when adjudicating between the two eldest and caring for the baby. Eg yesterday ds5 was playing a fractions game he enjoys, involving making pizzas out of various sized slices. Dd3 jumps in and deliberately kicks the pizzas apart all over the floor. I quietly tell her that this makes her brother sad because he wanted to make all the pizzas, and request that she walk around them instead. He starts work again, she wrecks it again. I ask her gently whether she is trying to tell me something, would she like some attention? She says yes, so I balance her on my lap (in front of her breastfeeding baby sister) and tell her a story just for her, with her name in it. I thought that would (a) distract her and (b) make her feel less jealous, but no, as soon as we're done, she is off my lap and ruining her brother's work again. This time I picked her up and sat her at the table to start lunch early - she didn't mind, because she was hungry, but it was still me coercing her. So yeah, sorry about that long-winded example, but I find that while it might be do-able to not force one child to do things, it's really hard to figure out how this can work when you have more than one child. Especially here where ds is not assertive and would always end up losing out if I didn't intervene.

[SandraDodd]

It helped me, when my children were younger and I was trying to figure out how to treat them like people, to think of how I would speak to an adult friend who was visiting at my house.

If your son were playing with a pizza game and a stranger came into your house and kicked the pieces, would you say "That makes my son sad"? I doubt it.

Instead of thinking of being gentle at that moment, think of defending your son's right to play in peace in his own home.

I probably would have said "STOP IT," or at least "Leave him alone or get out."

If a child is shocked for a moment by a response to intentional bad behavior, that's natural. It's not spanking. It's not shaming. It's defense of the other child.

-=-she wrecks it again. I ask her gently whether she is trying to tell me something, would she like some attention? -=-

She's three, but she's big enough to think about kicking someone else's game apart to get your attention. To speak to her as gently when she's acting roughly as when she's being sweet won't encourage her to be sweeter. To ask her if she's trying to tell you something when you know she is (or you could assume she is) might irritate her more than being ignored. If I came in clearly frustrated and agitated and slammed something down on the counter, I would hope my husband would say or do something soothing, and it would not be soothing for him to ask gently whether I was trying to tell him something, or would I like some attention. Not all communication is verbal.

If you don't want to use a sharp tone, you could say "Hey, Holly..." (whatever her name is), could you get me that box of tissues please?" Something real, something that gets her away from her brother, something that gives her a focus and has her interacting with you. I've asked kids to feed the dog or let the cat out or flush the toilet or get kleenex or take a cup to the sink... the physical activity and focus help.

Could you have asked your son to put the game on the table after the first kicking incident?

[Kezia]

Sandra, you might be right there. We have been having a hard time lately, lots of yelling at them, threatening them and being generally not nice - so possibly I'm trying so hard not to do that, that it's coming out too nice! Also I'm trying to cut her some slack because she's having difficulty coming to terms with no longer being the baby of the family. (Although obviously, letting her get away with murder probably won't help.)

Btw, forgot to ask before, I can see what you meant about regulation, and the principles vs rules thing (and we've actually been trying to apply this, so instead of don't hit, don't bite, don't push people over etc we have a principle that says "we take care of people, animals and things"), but could you clarify what is your problem with autonomy? Why wouldn't kids want it? Don't all people want to have as much self determination as they can handle?

[SandraDodd]

-=Also I'm trying to cut her some slack because she's having difficulty coming to terms with no longer being the baby of the family.-=-

I had a terrible time when my sister was born. I still remember, and I was three. I'm not against cutting her slack at all, but providing a safe zone for her older brother seems right and good too.

-=-but could you clarify what is your problem with autonomy? -=-

This could be me not used to the Australian vernacular, perhaps, but isn't this a harsh way to ask? "What is your problem" seems antagonistic to me. It's hard to respond to a question like that without saying "I don't have a problem" or "my problem is this:"

Back to principles, then. If a family puts "autonomy" as a goal above learning, above peace, it won't make unschooling easy. Why should a tiny child be "autonomous" if his parents are living and right in the same house? Why can't he be sheltered and nurtured and indulged and as dependent as he wants to be instead of being "autonomous"?

Should an eight year old who's being picked on by a little sister need to exercise his "autonomy" to defend himself?

-=- instead of don't hit, don't bite, don't push people over etc we have a principle that says "we take care of people, animals and things-=-

"We take care of..." is another rule, it seems. And it reminds me a little of a nurse asking "How are we?" as she pulls back the curtains and turns the lights on in a once darkened and peaceful hospital room. "WE" are not all the same. She's chipper and disturbing the peace, while I'm in pain and wishing I were elsewhere.

Maybe a principle or a priority to use would be keeping home peaceful. It should be peaceful for people and pets, and breaking things isn't peaceful. That would cover trying not to hurt people or their projects or their feelings or their privacy, within reason. Peace doesn't need to be quiet.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy

-=-what is your problem with autonomy? Why wouldn't kids want it? Don't all people want to have as much self determination as they can handle?-=-

Have I written something to indicate that I don't think people want as much self determination as they can handle?

[Aurora]

I've always viewed autonomy as freedom. It's never occured to me that it could be negative. Everyone I know desires freedom, freedom to make decisions regarding their own life. I see what you mean Sandra, though. If we live by this ''rule''- placing autonomy above all else, we can actually push autonomy/independence too much on the child, even when they want to be nutured and helped. I can imagine if so much focus was placed on autonomy and on the child making their own decisions, s/he might feel uncomfortable about approaching parents for guidance when they want it.

I am slowly learning to let go of the ''rules'' in my head regarding unschooling. I have all these pre-conceived ideas about how I have to be, and what I have to do, when I think they real key is just relaxing and living life! I like the idea of principles instead of rules. I am also in the habit of saying ''we''. Eg I might say ''We don't yell when someone is sleeping'' or ''We don't draw on the walls'', and now I see how patronising/condescending that seems. I will check out those article links for alternative responses.

[Sarasvati]

The way we try to live is just to go about life. Sometimes Kira stops me in my tracks and demands autonomy. When she does, I listen and (try to) respond appropriately. I don't push it on her though, mostly I choose what she wears because she is fairly indifferent but sometimes she wants to choose. Cool. She regulates her own bedtimes though sometimes I do suggest stories at night instead of running around madly. Basically I make the decisions until I run up against a brick wall, and when I do, I know she has a need for autonomy.

I don't always treat her like an adult, no. For one, I treat different adults differently. Two, I expect more from an adult. If an adult started wrecking something of a child's, I would be pretty pissed off and wonder what the hell they were on. If a 3 year old wrecks something of another child's, I would be cranky but understand that a 3 year has not fully developed empathy - and also hasn't fully developed their self-esteem. So I would be more gentle with a 3 year old. I want to protect both children's rights. It's hard when you are trapped under a newbie bfing, and expect some less than stellar parenting for a little while to come ;), but I do agree that distraction works a treat. It can be really exhausting redirecting and keeping things fun, and trying to stay one step ahead of them, but nicer than screaming and yelling and crying.

Marshall Rosenberg (NVC guru) talks about yelling in giraffe. Giraffe being the language of nonviolent communication. Instead of yelling in a shaming way, we yell our feelings and needs. I'm not expressing it very well, it helps to read the books LOL. In our house you sometimes hear me yelling "I'm so cranky right now! I need some space!" and Kira yelling back "NO I'M CRANKY and I need some space!" LOL. Of course I wouldn't recommend that with a baby in your lap ;).

[Laiste]

We do similar in our house Anastasia. Using "I" statements and "feelings"- "I'm feeling very grumpy" etc etc. It's helping a lot and now Ruby will come out with "Arrghhhh..frustrated!!!!" instead of mindless wingeing and screaming.

[Kezia]

This could be me not used to the Australian vernacular, perhaps, but isn't this a harsh way to ask? "What is your problem" seems antagonistic to me.

The question wasn't meant to sound antagonistic - I'm sorry if it came across that way! I was just interested because I'm a fan of Alfie Kohn's book and I seem to remember he talks about autonomy (although I'm not sure because someone has borrowed my book so I can't check it atm).

Maybe a principle or a priority to use would be keeping home peaceful. It should be peaceful for people and pets, and breaking things isn't peaceful. That would cover trying not to hurt people or their projects or their feelings or their privacy, within reason. Peace doesn't need to be quiet.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/noisy


Thanks, will check it out, haven't seen your articles before.



I don't always treat her like an adult, no. For one, I treat different adults differently. Two, I expect more from an adult.

I think you're right, we can't always treat children like adults. (Sometimes my children behave in a way that if they were adults I wouldn't want to ever see them again). I guess we can give them the save amount of respect as adults, though.

[SandraDodd]

-=-I was just interested because I'm a fan of Alfie Kohn's book-=-

He's not a fan of unschooling. He's helping people whose kids are in school.
There are better ways to be with children than merely to help them survive school.

[Sarasvati]

Yes Kezia I always strive to give her the same respect as an adult (or more lol).

[jikki]

We've only just started h/s, and I've been bombarded by soo many people about how I'm going to 'do it'!! Radical unschool/curriculum/natural learning/unit studies....what will you be doing??!! After numerous episodes of feeling flustered and having to try explain and justify, I settled on my response - "eclectic". When they ask what that means, I say that it means we'll be doing bits and pieces of what works for us. (I never realised how inquisitive/intrusive people could be when you mention that you're h/s....even complete strangers! Do you want to know what colour my knickers are too??!!!!)

[jikki]

oh...ok...sorry, bad habit of mine....replying to a thread only to find out that there is a page 2 of the thread, and my post is now completely irrelevant....sorry!!

[Ayla]

Lol Jikki I loved your post, especially the knickers bit :lol

[SandraDodd]

If a complete stranger has discovered you're homeschooling (probably because you told him) then the next question is going to be about how you do it. That will last forever. You can be angry, or you can relax. Relaxation and joy help everything and everyone.

Being bombarded is way better than being ignored, when it comes to learning opportunities.

When "eclectic" means "I don't know and I don't want to think about it" (which it might not with you, but it does with some people) it's harder for people to continue to explore what others have found helpful.