Are workbooks always evil?

[Sarasvati]

LOL!! I just read the Deschooling article by Sandra on the site and am wondering if all workbooks are always evil, all the time, in natural learning? I got a couple for Kira (not maths ones) and she seemed to like them, but I found it frustrating when she wanted my help constantly (even after doing several of the same activity). I know when she was going to FDC her activities were very structured, there wasn't much opportunity to think laterally, or explore her creativity. I think she has to deschool from there a bit gah.

Do natural learners ever use workbooks? Or are they taboo?

[Beatrice]

I don't think anything is taboo other than *requiring* the child to do something they don't want to do. I don't *like* workbooks, and I don't think that they add anything in particular to a child's learning experience other than box ticking for reporting purposes, given that I don't believe that learning in isolation from context is going to stick anywhere near as well as learning from context, but I've also discovered that railing against them is Not Helpful when my child wants to do them. I don't know whether she'd still want to do them if she had never been to school, and if she hadn't been indoctrinated by annoying relatives claiming that she'll never get anywhere if she doesn't "get an education" (bwahaha), but she's had every opportunity (short of me taking them off her and throwing them out and banning her from ever seeing those relatives again, which is hardly non-coercive) to stop doing them, and she still wants to.

I'm also coming to realise that B is actually finding structure valuable. I think she likes feeling like she can do a couple of pages every day, without any pressure, then put them aside and do other stuff, and that this will get her towards her goal of "getting up to grade level". I might think that that is a fairly meaningless goal overall, but given that one of the things I am aiming for in my kids is *internal motivation* I'm not really quibbling that much about the fact that B has decided that she is going to do something and is carrying it through with no more than the occasional reminder, as requested, from me. OK, so it's going against what *I* believe, but this isn't about *me*, kwim? B has always been my teacher in this :)

That said, I think the caveat among unschoolers about workbooks is related to parents falling into the trap of valuing the workbooks over and above anything else their kids might be doing, because kids *will* pick up on this, and it will influence their judgements about where to spend their time.

[Sarasvati]

Ok yep that last bit made total sense. The workbook is something concrete for parents who might be struggling to deschool, and they focus on the workbook instead of focussing on their children. So maybe for parents in the process of deschooling, workbooks should be avoided.

[Beatrice]

Pretty much. It's very easy to *tell yourself* that you're providing a wide range of interesting things for your kids and that workbooks are just one of them and no better or more important than anything else, but it's also pretty easy to be wrong about your degree of impartiality :blueroll With my contrarian, my motivations have probably contributed equally towards her refusing to use workbooks when we first started homeschooling, then deciding she wanted to use them once I'd concluded that they were crap :lol

[Ayla]

Thanks for this thread, I was wondering about activity books as well.

[Quickening]

DD spotted a shapes and colours workbook at the bookshop a while back and asked for it to colour in. She asked me what the words said. It was fun for her to do some of the stuff in the book but she soon got bored of it and started drawing spirals instead of circles and colouring in her oblong shapes a variety of rainbow colours instead of the one colour the book asked for. Now its in her craft box as scrap paper to rip up or glue on stuff. She has seen other workbooks since but hasn't asked for them. She asks for plain paper now and writing or painting stuff.

[bella]

My children have used them at certain stages. DD1 particularly likes workbooks and textbooks. She often uses one intensely for a bit, goes off on a tangent and either goes back to it or is beyond it...

Mostly, my girls have preferred them, and especially at the stage when they're learning to write letters and numbers, or once they're moving into "highschool" maths etc. Oh, they've also used handwriting books initially at around 5, and then again when they wanted to learn cursive. Then they've gone on to create their own style of handwriting, but they do use the workbooks as some sort of foundation.

One of my daughters is using a spelling book to try to improve her spelling because it frustrates her not being able to spell all the words she would like to... She treats it like an activity or puzzle book, like sudoku or similar, where she just sits and does some of the exercises some quiet days...

I think, used in this manner, the workbook (or textbook, or activity book) is just another tool... To me it fits in with natural learning just fine.

[SandraDodd]

I agree with Bella. That's how my kids treated workbooks. They were in with mazes and coloring books and puzzle books, and sometimes they would go through some of those books and pick out some pages to do. I didn't pressure them to start what they finished or to be methodical in a workbook any more than I did with coloring books or anything else. They could use them the way they wanted to. Sometimes they were fun.

[Ayla]

I was flicking through some workbooks today (pre-school 3-5yrs ones) and some of it seems a bit forced (like the writing sections) but other parts seem more like activity books. So what's the diff between a workbook and an activity book? I know they're not necessary for learning but they could be fun? I dunno, part of me says "Ha! You're still thinking schoolishly" another part is saying "What's the harm?" and then another says "Shaddup, you're over-analysing this as usual" :lol

[shaestar]

I think as long as the child is interested in doing the workbook & there is no expectation that the child has to finish any of the activities then it still fits into the natural learning scope.

[Janet]

Workbooks are always evil, cause the brain to rot and the parents to lose all credibility. :) I don't think there's much that's intrinsically evil, is there? All these things are about how they're used rather than what they are per se. Provided you don't sit the kid down and flog them with praise till they finish one unit per day I think you'll be ok. ;)

[Ceres]

Yep what they said. We have workbooks here, they sit in a drawer and DS pulls them out when he's feeling interested.

[Ayla]

Cool, thanks! :ty

[Beatrice]

H found a preschool sticker workbook the other day and spent an hour doing it with me. Clearly he thought it was the bee's elbows as I can't think of many things he sits down to do for an hour :lol

[StarryOne]

I think, used in this manner, the workbook (or textbook, or activity book) is just another tool... To me it fits in with natural learning just fine.Ditto here. I planned to never use any, then my nanna sent me stacks of them...........and the girls love them. I imagine it will wear off as they get older. One actually came in really useful the other day as Holli (4) wanted to write something, but has trouble with diagonal lines. So she grabbed her alphabet one and practiced it until she was happy she could do it well enough to label her picture.

I draw the line at ones with extrinsic rewards though.


So what's the diff between a workbook and an activity book?The workbook has cashed in on the education bandwagon ;)

[Beatrice]

Do you mean the ones with gold stars and so on, StarryOne? I just let them put the stars wherever they want. I don't know if either of them have twigged to the idea that they're supposed to be rewarded for their efforts...

[Ceres]

I've told DS that the stars are for craft and that he can stick them anywhere he wants.. it's hard to find one that doesn't involve some kind of reward.

[StarryOne]

They're the ones Beatrice. My MIL bought them some and we did the same thing with them-but then again, I think the kids would look at me as if I were an idiot if I encouraged them to do something for a tiddly gold star! Now, if I used cake.............

[Snooty]

My kids LOVE the work books my mum is constantly inundating them with. They're like colouring-in books on steroids. And we all know everyone loves colouring-in books. They're stored with all the other colouring and scrap book and art supplies and get pull out and drawn all over when the kids are in the mood. ;)



Do you mean the ones with gold stars and so on, StarryOne? I just let them put the stars wherever they want. I don't know if either of them have twigged to the idea that they're supposed to be rewarded for their efforts...

It universally my kids favourite thing to do with new work books; pull out the stickers and find out where they go on each page and stick them all on. :lol

[Sarasvati]

What sucks though is when you tell your child they are just for craft and then she elarns to read the bullshit praise all over the stickers :lol. "Great work! Why does it say great work mum?" :lol

[Kris]

Oh dear, reading this thread has made me worried about the next mania my mother is going to spend money on. I can feel myself being inundated with work books until I snap and send the kids back to school :uhh

My kids didn't have work books in school, no stars, no grading nada. I'm thinking about work books now because I want some structure. The kids just want a daily rhythm. DH is thinking he might set some maths work each evening for the two big kids.

[Janet]

Encourage non-glossy ones, Kris, then you can compost or worm farm them if they get out of hand. :)

[Ceres]

I just bought 3 science workbooks each for my and GG's boys, but they loooooove backyard science and were SO excited to find that these exist!

[Sarasvati]

There are backyard science workbooks?

[gecko]

CSIRO website also has lots of cool backyard science stuff.

I have heaps of books - mostly given to me by my teacher sil -and they stay in the drawer and get pulled out when they want. they are not into colouring. more into drawing pictures of vampires riding on the back of a whale while the whale blows water under the vampires umpits! :rofl

as far as the ones with the stickers - they end up all over arms and legs - they love them the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Janet]

I got to an acupuncture appt last night after travelling across the city on 2 forms of PT and discovered I had a big Mickey Mouse sticker stuck on my chest. :imateapot And I mean chest, it was on my skin and I had a lowish neckline on. How the fuck did a. I not notice before I left my friend's house and b. how the fuck did neither friend nor dp notice or tell me?? There will be strong words when I see the friend later. :lol

[gecko]

:roflpeople tend not to notice things they see all the time Janet!!

at least it wasn't on your bum!!!!!!!!!!

[Ayla]

:rofl! Maybe they thought you knew and were okay with it? :lol

[Ceres]

I got to an acupuncture appt last night after travelling across the city on 2 forms of PT and discovered I had a big Mickey Mouse sticker stuck on my chest. :imateapot And I mean chest, it was on my skin and I had a lowish neckline on. How the fuck did a. I not notice before I left my friend's house and b. how the fuck did neither friend nor dp notice or tell me?? There will be strong words when I see the friend later. :lol
:lol that is hilarious! Did you have children with you on the PT or did you just look like some weird person wearing a micky mouse sticker?

[zenifa]

I was at a bookstore on the weekend that had 20% off workbooks, of all different brands, types, ages, subjects etc, so I had a browse and could see how one could easily get into workbooks, they did look like fun, and could really add some structure, I haven't ruled them out completely, but wouldn't rely on them soley (as I'm sure most don't), but its still a bit early for us, so I was very restrained and didn't buy any.

[Sarasvati]

I bought a "science and technology" and a "working with numbers" workbook for Kira on Sat. They are both "grade 1". So anyway Kira sat at the table last night doing the science one for ages... she loved it :lol. In fact I said "um, Dance is on, wanna come watch it with me?" and she said "no I want to do this" :lol.

[Beatrice]

:lol

[Ceres]

What brand is the science and technology one?

[Anaed]

Science and technology sounds ike fun! where did you get them from?

[Sarasvati]

Um the Excel brand I think? No stickers or praise shit in it. Anaed Angus and Robertson.

She asked tonight if she could have the "playbook". Hehehehe!

[Ayla]

Playbook is a good word for it!