Ayla
04-11-2008, 03:12 PM
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valleymama
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Sprout
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Well, this is one of the things I have been reflecting on as I read Rue Kream.
There is a fairly common belief that children need boundaries, and that they thrive with routine. Well I certainly have never been able to hold down much of a routine with the kids, but my kids do seem to be thriving regardless. Particularly with demand breastfeeding and EC etc there never seemed like there could be a routine because things change all the time. And now with our natural learning, no two days are the same.
As for "boundaries", while we do have guidelines to do with things like safety, treatment of others etc, our kids are still comparatively free to be themselves and they seem fine to me.
So anyway, what is all this talk about routines and boundaries about? Is it for the convenience of the parents/the rest of the family? Does anyone have a routine that actually works for them?
Is it true that kids like to "test" the boundaries, or are they just straining against restriction? Could it be that some kids respond well to routine, but others don't? I wonder what's the difference in the end, between the kids who have been brought up with the routines and boundaries and those who haven't?
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majikfaerie
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i'm not entirely sure, but i don't quite buy the kids "testing boundaries" thing. I definitely don't buy the routine bit, though i have met people for whom it works.
we could never get any routine going in our days, but there does seem to be a sort of weekly routine.
i have seen sometimes things that lead me to feel DD is testing, but not testing boundaries, as such, but more testing her safety. like, she needs to know that we love her unconditionally.
kids are learning, learning everything all the time. from the word go, from the day they are born. children don't have any concept of anything. they need to learn a language, a whole CULTURE. so much we take for granted, like if you hear that 'ring ring' sound, it's the telephone ringing and you need to pick it up and say hello. kids have to learn all of it.
and they are the ultimate example of scientific method. they observe. they make a hypothesis. they test. they refine. they build a working picture of the world.
everything is learned. they learn not just language and walking, but how to speak, and how to move. they learn what tones of voice mean, and body language. they learn what our limits are, personal limits, cultural limits, family limits, societal limits.
so yes, in that sense, they are very much testing. but i don't see it as testing boundaries to see how far they can 'push mum to get a reaction'. they arent just seeing how far they can push mum before she reacts, they are learning how to react themselves (remember that next time you're reacting).
they are learning if they are loved, even if they break the accepted boundaries of person, family and culture.
and not just learning, they are expressing.
I think if you want to raise children to be good, subservient factory workers, then strict routines and enforced boundaries would be a really great idea.
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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arunaway
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Sprout
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i wont touch boundaries just yet, but wanted to comment on routine. While im not into routine so much, i like the ideas of "rhythm" and "ritual" in our life.
rhythm – not in a musical sense but being aware of intense waves followed by calm moments for individuals & our family unit. It might be where M & Z have a frenzied chicken chasing time followed by a seemingly manic time on the trampoline. In such situations if things seem to be getting frayed after a while, i might invite them into a quieter activity (drawing, reading, watching a dvd etc). Another example is M likes slow mornings but is ready for action around 10am... so just being aware of that and scheduling stuff accordingly.
the difference as i see it is "routine" is working to an external clock, while rhythm is working with their internal clock... whether it be in an hour, in a day and even a week (eg. action packed days followed by chilling out days etc).
ritual – this is something i would like more of. We are not religious, though dp is a 'little buddhisty' so dont have a set of rituals to follow. A year ago for a while M was not joining us for dinner. To make it more appealing and to mark the event, we created a ritual. M made up a song we all sing at dinner (even Z since he was one and a half), then we all either make a wish or say something we appreciated that day. Its something we came up with together and gets everyone at the table for dinner... and really gives a sense of importance and even mindfulness to what is happening.
Similarly the night time ritual of "tucking in" has gone from the most complex series of steps to now something quite simple.
I do value rituals though, basically i think cues or familiar actions to mark an event can give a sense of control and security for a child... or at least have done for ours
arun
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artymama
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Seedling
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Quoted Text
As for "boundaries", while we do have guidelines to do with things like safety, treatment of others etc, our kids are still comparatively free to be themselves and they seem fine to me.
I think those 'guidelines' are boundaries. Boundaries get such a bad rap because what most people see as 'boundaries' are actually enforced rules. In nature we see boundaries often. Our skin for example is a boundary for our internal parts, without it, our body would have issues functioning. A river has a natural boundary. It may ebb and flow with the tide or season but it's boundary directs it's path. I think when we are teaching our children things about safety or bodily respect etc are teaching them boundaries. I expect most radical unschoolers would have some form of boundaries in their lives when picked apart.....if it came to that.
I have known a couple of families who had no boundaries at all.....their 'home' wasn't even a boundary of safety against others etc. Really, it came down to the mum being a drug addict and acting as though she didn't give a toss ( I think she did but drugs ruled everything in her life and so it seemed as though she didn't care at all.) Her children were lovely to us because we took their food each week, but you could see they had no boundaries on many other levels with lots of other people. Hard to explain online. I knew them before I was a parent and when I look back now, I can see how much those kids just needed caring for, and some guidance.
Routine....what's that??!! I have no idea how people stick to a routine. I'm hopeless at any form of routine. I can't even remember what we did last week, let alone try and implement it again. I do wish we had more rhythm in our lives though. I know my dd2 copes really well without rhythm but my dd1 would love more of it. She actually asked if I could draw her weekly timetable. Oh dear!! Not my strong point and I still haven't done one.
I think with all things when it comes to our children (as long as it's not known to be damaging) some things work for some and some things work for others. I have seen my dd1 thrive on 'routine' when she knows exactly what is going on and her fall apart when she doesn't. This is a child who has grown up with absolutely no routine. She was demand breastfed, coslept, no set bedtime no set meal times etc etc. Children are all so different, I don't believe there is ever a 'routine or no routine' one box fits all.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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kali
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Seedling
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We call it rhythm here too
We use it because of the little time clock in our bodies. The children seem to get tired at the same time most nights because they are woken at the same time each morning. They take themselves to bed, so I never really have to ask them to. I like my child free time at night because of the demands and needs they have can be draining and constant, so they respect that and go to their play area or their rooms to do their own thing after 8pm if they don't wish to go to bed... but of course, if they really need my company, I am understanding towards that, as long as they are respectful and don't run around making a huge amount of noise, or argue with eachother etc.
We have dinner at the same time most nights because we are always hungry at the time and we like to sit and eat together at the table.
If they didn't go to school I guess the rhythm would be different. They wouldn't be woken in the morning so would probably stay up later at night and sleep in longer in the morning.. but would still have a rhythm regardless.
As for "testing boundaries" I believe that just means that kids are just trying out things which are out of the daily routine.. they are being spontanious and alot of parents see it more of being "naughty" because they are so strict with their time lines and what their set "rules" are.
We don't have set rules or boundaries here other than to not hurt, steal, or leave the house without asking. I'm a push over apparantly and need to control my little possessions more
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Sarah
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Sprout
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I just wanted to touch on the routine thing.
We don't have a routine here, but DD really needs to know what is going to happen & when. Every morning she asks if we're going out, & if so is there a time to be there or do we go whenever we're ready. If there's a time, what time, how far away is that, when do I need to get ready etc. She seems to need to know that evry minute is planned out.
And non direct answers don't cut it for her. She doesn't like you can get dressed whenever you're ready, we can have lunch whenever you're hungry, we will get going when everyone is ready. She will then ask how many minutes, what will the hand on the clock look like.
I'm trying to see this as DD learning time, & length of time, but sometimes it feels like she has a need to control. Like if I say okay we will leave in 30 mins, she will stare at her watch & if we're not ready to leave in 30 mins, she can get quite distressed. Which I find really hard because I'm never on time.
So although we don't have a routine, I do think some children might need a bit of organisation in their lives. If only I could learn to be organised!
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greendraggon
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We love rhythm here too. Some days we need more of it, some less. I'm pretty hopeless with routines and DH is even worse. I am however one of those people who likes to know what to expect and DD is similar. As the OP described with demand feeding and EC there was not a chance at all of routine in DD's baby days. There was however, always rhythm if I bothered to look for it. For instance I used to drive myself crazy lying down to feed her to sleep for a nap since I could see she was incredibly tired & wanted to sleep but she'd spend what seemed like hours feeding & almost dropping off just to wake up again. Then I'd get frustrated, we'd get up & she'd signal for the toilet. She'd do a big poo, afterwards I'd feed her & she'd fall asleep in ten seconds. It took me months to work out that she always slept after a poo. Sorry if tmi, just occurred to me as a baby example of rhythm vs routine.
Gotta go. Will think more about boundaries
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Gullygirl
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Seedling
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We have safety boundaries and personal boundaries. The safety boundaries are generally about road safety and kitchen safety but they are flexible as I see his ability to make safer judgments grow. It is tricky but I think we do ok.
The personal ones are a work in progress but basically consist of us learnign to listen to each other and respecting each other's wishes re our bodies, belongings and needs. The part my boy is still learnign about is identifying a need vs a want (eg. he needs to whack me on the head for his game but I need to stop my head from being whacked cos it hurts!) and I also have a it to learn too about what is a need from HIS perspective. All pretty normal stuff I think for his age.
not sure about routine - when we need to be places I have a certain order I do things and I suppose even when at home I do things pretty similarly each day but not consciously. I don't feel a need for it at all and I don't' think my child does.
mama to a 4yr old boy
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valleymama
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Sprout
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Quoted from artymama
I think those 'guidelines' are boundaries. Boundaries get such a bad rap because what most people see as 'boundaries' are actually enforced rules. In nature we see boundaries often.
You're right Artymama. Yes, I was refering to boundaries using the definition of enforced rules, because of the context of comments I have heard recently. I get a bit hung up on making sure i have the right terminology and I guess I was thinking in terms of guidelines as being flexible according to the situation, whereas boundaries were more solid. But I suppose that's not necessarily the case.
And thank you Arun, for bringing "rhythm" to the discussion! While we don't have routine, I realise we definitely have rhythm, so it's nice to notice that. We have ritual too, on and off, which the kids do enjoy.
timetables....well, when I took K out of school, I started homeschooling with a full time-table and I was a wreck by the end of the first week! So we let go of that pretty quickly....now we are the opposite end of the spectrum, but I want to work up to a bit more of a realistic loose timetable, where we at least have a general idea of what we might want to achieve on a certain day, but not put too much pressure on ourselves if it doesn't happen. I think we might be ready for this now, as he is nearly 9 and needing a bit more direction, i think.
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valleymama
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Sprout
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ps - I think having siblings who are much younger as well is the fastest way to sabotage a timetable!
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valleymama
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Sprout
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Quoted from majikfaerie
I think if you want to raise children to be good, subservient factory workers, then strict routines and enforced boundaries would be a really great idea.
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Temple
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Seed
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I love the idea of rhythm rather than routine... rhythm I can work with.
We do have boundaries - safety, respectful treatment of our animals, speaking appropriately to each other, and respect personal space (DD loves to invade my personal space, usually while I'm on the loo lol). Other than that, we are working on letting other stuff go. We start hs at the end of next week (YAY!) so we will be able to be more effective with that then...
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majikfaerie
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this totally got the old peter coombe song in my head "Rhythm, Rhythm, Everybody's got a little Rhythm..."
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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artemis of the eucalypts
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Really interesting replies! We dont have a routine either....except we always shop on Fridays Otherwise it is just flow as it needs to.
Boundaries....like everyone else we have safety boundaries and personal respect boundaries. We probably have some more boundaries that dont fall into either categories, and we do have 'no', which is a pretty big boundary. I too know of families with very few boundaries where autonomy of the children seems to be given precedent over pretty much anything else, and it doesnt look pretty.
Do kids test boundaries? I think kids seek a sense of self in realtion to their surroundings and their culture. Times when parents feel boundaries are being tested IMHO also coincide when the next burst for independence/seperation/self seeking is occuring. I have seen similar behaviours in families with almost non existant boundaries.
R a i n b o w mumma to 2 natural learners dd '03 and ds '07
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Sarah
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Sprout
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Now I'll be singing that Peter Coombe song all day!
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Cyathea
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I too think rhythm is a great way to describe it, some days are more rhythmic than others though!
As for children testing boundaries, I think it is like anything in their life, they are just figuring out how it all works, what works and what does not, and MF's analogy of hypothesis and experiment and outcome etc was spot on I reckon.
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esp
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Sprout
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I think some children require more routine than others. My eldest never had any kind of routine (it's not my strong point) until one day I realized that he is very much like my husband who likes all the basic parts to his life to be the same. Same undies, same socks, he gets up at the same time, poos at the same time etc. DS1 was MUCH happier when I realized this and actually implemented some more guidance to these areas. He is 6 now and I am more relaxed, but he does need to know what comes next. Actually I find that everything is a tricky balance with him in general, but it's not because of any reason other than - it's just how he is.
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Chrissy
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Seed
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We love a little rhythm in our lives, DD 6 LOVES her night rhythm. She actually gets really upset if she misses out on some aspect of it. Some really special one on one time where we read, cuddle and talk... she makes herself a plate of delicious snack to nibble.
JJ (3) loves his nightly breastfeeding rhythm too, he has a giggle, cuddle and some booseys every night.
They cope well when we are not at home but sometimes say how much they miss their special time at night.
These are examples of child led rhythms we have in our house, we have heaps more too. These tend to be special things that they can look forward to each day and they seem to really find comfort in this. All our rhythms are child led and are often changing.
Boundaries..... I have them and so do my kids. I love watching theirs at work. DD 6 will allow a certain amount of rough play from DS 3 and then he hits that boundary and she lets him know she has had enough. I encourage respect for each others boudaries within our family and we pretty much understand each other pretty well I am very flexible with my boundaries, depending on my mood. ie I am prepared to read for an hour or so then I have had enough etc.
ramble over
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serenity
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On the subject of routines, we're a very go with the flow type of family. Our routines are based on priorities more than anything else. If the cupboards are bare on Thursday I'll go grocery shopping, if there's enough to last til Saturday, I'll do it then etc. Nothing is set in stone. I think having routines that are too strict can cause more stress for kids and parents. I know a family who had a 'routine' list on the fridge. It was timed down to the minute ... eg. home from childcare at 5, 5.15-5.30 change clothes, 5.30-6 tv, 6-6.30 quality time with Dad (yes even quality time with parents was scheduled.)
The whole evening was timed until bed at 9.30. Only they'd forgotten to "time in" tea If the schedule got broken by 10 minutes all hell would break loose. Parents would get stressed which would make the already tired kids get stroppier and the whole evening would turn into a disaster zone.
I'm sure it must have worked for them, but I'd go batty trying to get a young child to keep to those kind of timetables.
I find DD needs to have tea at 5.00, but that's about the extent of our timetable. Everything else happens when it happens.
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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Sam
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I have found more of a routine kicks in when my kids are old enough to have scheduled classes. Our week atm revolves around my 8yo's tennis, art and dance classes and the two weekly homeschool meets we attend. This is plenty of structure for us. The rest of the time we go with the flow but we tend to have seasonal habits e.g. we always eat our breakfast together outside in Summer and the girls have a bath together in the evenings in Winter. Sometimes I just have to work around my health (if I'm not well we can't go out as much) and other times it's the weather (we cycle everywhere so if it's raining we stay home more) and then to make up for the down time if I feel well and the weather is fine we take advantage of that. I like that dd's classes break for school holidays so we get a few months of no scheduled activities at all. That seems to suit us all best and we love that holiday feeling.
Sam
valleymama
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Sprout
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Well, this is one of the things I have been reflecting on as I read Rue Kream.
There is a fairly common belief that children need boundaries, and that they thrive with routine. Well I certainly have never been able to hold down much of a routine with the kids, but my kids do seem to be thriving regardless. Particularly with demand breastfeeding and EC etc there never seemed like there could be a routine because things change all the time. And now with our natural learning, no two days are the same.
As for "boundaries", while we do have guidelines to do with things like safety, treatment of others etc, our kids are still comparatively free to be themselves and they seem fine to me.
So anyway, what is all this talk about routines and boundaries about? Is it for the convenience of the parents/the rest of the family? Does anyone have a routine that actually works for them?
Is it true that kids like to "test" the boundaries, or are they just straining against restriction? Could it be that some kids respond well to routine, but others don't? I wonder what's the difference in the end, between the kids who have been brought up with the routines and boundaries and those who haven't?
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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majikfaerie
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Tree
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i'm not entirely sure, but i don't quite buy the kids "testing boundaries" thing. I definitely don't buy the routine bit, though i have met people for whom it works.
we could never get any routine going in our days, but there does seem to be a sort of weekly routine.
i have seen sometimes things that lead me to feel DD is testing, but not testing boundaries, as such, but more testing her safety. like, she needs to know that we love her unconditionally.
kids are learning, learning everything all the time. from the word go, from the day they are born. children don't have any concept of anything. they need to learn a language, a whole CULTURE. so much we take for granted, like if you hear that 'ring ring' sound, it's the telephone ringing and you need to pick it up and say hello. kids have to learn all of it.
and they are the ultimate example of scientific method. they observe. they make a hypothesis. they test. they refine. they build a working picture of the world.
everything is learned. they learn not just language and walking, but how to speak, and how to move. they learn what tones of voice mean, and body language. they learn what our limits are, personal limits, cultural limits, family limits, societal limits.
so yes, in that sense, they are very much testing. but i don't see it as testing boundaries to see how far they can 'push mum to get a reaction'. they arent just seeing how far they can push mum before she reacts, they are learning how to react themselves (remember that next time you're reacting).
they are learning if they are loved, even if they break the accepted boundaries of person, family and culture.
and not just learning, they are expressing.
I think if you want to raise children to be good, subservient factory workers, then strict routines and enforced boundaries would be a really great idea.
It takes a village
http://majikfaerie.blogspot.com
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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arunaway
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Sprout
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i wont touch boundaries just yet, but wanted to comment on routine. While im not into routine so much, i like the ideas of "rhythm" and "ritual" in our life.
rhythm – not in a musical sense but being aware of intense waves followed by calm moments for individuals & our family unit. It might be where M & Z have a frenzied chicken chasing time followed by a seemingly manic time on the trampoline. In such situations if things seem to be getting frayed after a while, i might invite them into a quieter activity (drawing, reading, watching a dvd etc). Another example is M likes slow mornings but is ready for action around 10am... so just being aware of that and scheduling stuff accordingly.
the difference as i see it is "routine" is working to an external clock, while rhythm is working with their internal clock... whether it be in an hour, in a day and even a week (eg. action packed days followed by chilling out days etc).
ritual – this is something i would like more of. We are not religious, though dp is a 'little buddhisty' so dont have a set of rituals to follow. A year ago for a while M was not joining us for dinner. To make it more appealing and to mark the event, we created a ritual. M made up a song we all sing at dinner (even Z since he was one and a half), then we all either make a wish or say something we appreciated that day. Its something we came up with together and gets everyone at the table for dinner... and really gives a sense of importance and even mindfulness to what is happening.
Similarly the night time ritual of "tucking in" has gone from the most complex series of steps to now something quite simple.
I do value rituals though, basically i think cues or familiar actions to mark an event can give a sense of control and security for a child... or at least have done for ours
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
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artymama
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Quoted Text
As for "boundaries", while we do have guidelines to do with things like safety, treatment of others etc, our kids are still comparatively free to be themselves and they seem fine to me.
I think those 'guidelines' are boundaries. Boundaries get such a bad rap because what most people see as 'boundaries' are actually enforced rules. In nature we see boundaries often. Our skin for example is a boundary for our internal parts, without it, our body would have issues functioning. A river has a natural boundary. It may ebb and flow with the tide or season but it's boundary directs it's path. I think when we are teaching our children things about safety or bodily respect etc are teaching them boundaries. I expect most radical unschoolers would have some form of boundaries in their lives when picked apart.....if it came to that.
I have known a couple of families who had no boundaries at all.....their 'home' wasn't even a boundary of safety against others etc. Really, it came down to the mum being a drug addict and acting as though she didn't give a toss ( I think she did but drugs ruled everything in her life and so it seemed as though she didn't care at all.) Her children were lovely to us because we took their food each week, but you could see they had no boundaries on many other levels with lots of other people. Hard to explain online. I knew them before I was a parent and when I look back now, I can see how much those kids just needed caring for, and some guidance.
Routine....what's that??!! I have no idea how people stick to a routine. I'm hopeless at any form of routine. I can't even remember what we did last week, let alone try and implement it again. I do wish we had more rhythm in our lives though. I know my dd2 copes really well without rhythm but my dd1 would love more of it. She actually asked if I could draw her weekly timetable. Oh dear!! Not my strong point and I still haven't done one.
I think with all things when it comes to our children (as long as it's not known to be damaging) some things work for some and some things work for others. I have seen my dd1 thrive on 'routine' when she knows exactly what is going on and her fall apart when she doesn't. This is a child who has grown up with absolutely no routine. She was demand breastfed, coslept, no set bedtime no set meal times etc etc. Children are all so different, I don't believe there is ever a 'routine or no routine' one box fits all.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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kali
August 13, 2008, 11:21pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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We call it rhythm here too
We use it because of the little time clock in our bodies. The children seem to get tired at the same time most nights because they are woken at the same time each morning. They take themselves to bed, so I never really have to ask them to. I like my child free time at night because of the demands and needs they have can be draining and constant, so they respect that and go to their play area or their rooms to do their own thing after 8pm if they don't wish to go to bed... but of course, if they really need my company, I am understanding towards that, as long as they are respectful and don't run around making a huge amount of noise, or argue with eachother etc.
We have dinner at the same time most nights because we are always hungry at the time and we like to sit and eat together at the table.
If they didn't go to school I guess the rhythm would be different. They wouldn't be woken in the morning so would probably stay up later at night and sleep in longer in the morning.. but would still have a rhythm regardless.
As for "testing boundaries" I believe that just means that kids are just trying out things which are out of the daily routine.. they are being spontanious and alot of parents see it more of being "naughty" because they are so strict with their time lines and what their set "rules" are.
We don't have set rules or boundaries here other than to not hurt, steal, or leave the house without asking. I'm a push over apparantly and need to control my little possessions more
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Sarah
August 14, 2008, 7:35am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
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I just wanted to touch on the routine thing.
We don't have a routine here, but DD really needs to know what is going to happen & when. Every morning she asks if we're going out, & if so is there a time to be there or do we go whenever we're ready. If there's a time, what time, how far away is that, when do I need to get ready etc. She seems to need to know that evry minute is planned out.
And non direct answers don't cut it for her. She doesn't like you can get dressed whenever you're ready, we can have lunch whenever you're hungry, we will get going when everyone is ready. She will then ask how many minutes, what will the hand on the clock look like.
I'm trying to see this as DD learning time, & length of time, but sometimes it feels like she has a need to control. Like if I say okay we will leave in 30 mins, she will stare at her watch & if we're not ready to leave in 30 mins, she can get quite distressed. Which I find really hard because I'm never on time.
So although we don't have a routine, I do think some children might need a bit of organisation in their lives. If only I could learn to be organised!
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greendraggon
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We love rhythm here too. Some days we need more of it, some less. I'm pretty hopeless with routines and DH is even worse. I am however one of those people who likes to know what to expect and DD is similar. As the OP described with demand feeding and EC there was not a chance at all of routine in DD's baby days. There was however, always rhythm if I bothered to look for it. For instance I used to drive myself crazy lying down to feed her to sleep for a nap since I could see she was incredibly tired & wanted to sleep but she'd spend what seemed like hours feeding & almost dropping off just to wake up again. Then I'd get frustrated, we'd get up & she'd signal for the toilet. She'd do a big poo, afterwards I'd feed her & she'd fall asleep in ten seconds. It took me months to work out that she always slept after a poo. Sorry if tmi, just occurred to me as a baby example of rhythm vs routine.
Gotta go. Will think more about boundaries
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Gullygirl
August 14, 2008, 9:48am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Seedling
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We have safety boundaries and personal boundaries. The safety boundaries are generally about road safety and kitchen safety but they are flexible as I see his ability to make safer judgments grow. It is tricky but I think we do ok.
The personal ones are a work in progress but basically consist of us learnign to listen to each other and respecting each other's wishes re our bodies, belongings and needs. The part my boy is still learnign about is identifying a need vs a want (eg. he needs to whack me on the head for his game but I need to stop my head from being whacked cos it hurts!) and I also have a it to learn too about what is a need from HIS perspective. All pretty normal stuff I think for his age.
not sure about routine - when we need to be places I have a certain order I do things and I suppose even when at home I do things pretty similarly each day but not consciously. I don't feel a need for it at all and I don't' think my child does.
mama to a 4yr old boy
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valleymama
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Quoted from artymama
I think those 'guidelines' are boundaries. Boundaries get such a bad rap because what most people see as 'boundaries' are actually enforced rules. In nature we see boundaries often.
You're right Artymama. Yes, I was refering to boundaries using the definition of enforced rules, because of the context of comments I have heard recently. I get a bit hung up on making sure i have the right terminology and I guess I was thinking in terms of guidelines as being flexible according to the situation, whereas boundaries were more solid. But I suppose that's not necessarily the case.
And thank you Arun, for bringing "rhythm" to the discussion! While we don't have routine, I realise we definitely have rhythm, so it's nice to notice that. We have ritual too, on and off, which the kids do enjoy.
timetables....well, when I took K out of school, I started homeschooling with a full time-table and I was a wreck by the end of the first week! So we let go of that pretty quickly....now we are the opposite end of the spectrum, but I want to work up to a bit more of a realistic loose timetable, where we at least have a general idea of what we might want to achieve on a certain day, but not put too much pressure on ourselves if it doesn't happen. I think we might be ready for this now, as he is nearly 9 and needing a bit more direction, i think.
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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valleymama
August 14, 2008, 9:53am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
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ps - I think having siblings who are much younger as well is the fastest way to sabotage a timetable!
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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valleymama
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Sprout
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Quoted from majikfaerie
I think if you want to raise children to be good, subservient factory workers, then strict routines and enforced boundaries would be a really great idea.
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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Temple
August 14, 2008, 9:13pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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I love the idea of rhythm rather than routine... rhythm I can work with.
We do have boundaries - safety, respectful treatment of our animals, speaking appropriately to each other, and respect personal space (DD loves to invade my personal space, usually while I'm on the loo lol). Other than that, we are working on letting other stuff go. We start hs at the end of next week (YAY!) so we will be able to be more effective with that then...
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majikfaerie
August 14, 2008, 9:18pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Tree
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this totally got the old peter coombe song in my head "Rhythm, Rhythm, Everybody's got a little Rhythm..."
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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artemis of the eucalypts
August 14, 2008, 9:20pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Really interesting replies! We dont have a routine either....except we always shop on Fridays Otherwise it is just flow as it needs to.
Boundaries....like everyone else we have safety boundaries and personal respect boundaries. We probably have some more boundaries that dont fall into either categories, and we do have 'no', which is a pretty big boundary. I too know of families with very few boundaries where autonomy of the children seems to be given precedent over pretty much anything else, and it doesnt look pretty.
Do kids test boundaries? I think kids seek a sense of self in realtion to their surroundings and their culture. Times when parents feel boundaries are being tested IMHO also coincide when the next burst for independence/seperation/self seeking is occuring. I have seen similar behaviours in families with almost non existant boundaries.
R a i n b o w mumma to 2 natural learners dd '03 and ds '07
"...unfree education results in life that cannot be lived fully...... only the head is educated. If the emotions are permitted to be really free, the intelect will look after itself" A. S Neill
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Sarah
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Now I'll be singing that Peter Coombe song all day!
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Cyathea
August 15, 2008, 7:36am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I too think rhythm is a great way to describe it, some days are more rhythmic than others though!
As for children testing boundaries, I think it is like anything in their life, they are just figuring out how it all works, what works and what does not, and MF's analogy of hypothesis and experiment and outcome etc was spot on I reckon.
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esp
August 15, 2008, 8:16am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
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I think some children require more routine than others. My eldest never had any kind of routine (it's not my strong point) until one day I realized that he is very much like my husband who likes all the basic parts to his life to be the same. Same undies, same socks, he gets up at the same time, poos at the same time etc. DS1 was MUCH happier when I realized this and actually implemented some more guidance to these areas. He is 6 now and I am more relaxed, but he does need to know what comes next. Actually I find that everything is a tricky balance with him in general, but it's not because of any reason other than - it's just how he is.
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Chrissy
August 15, 2008, 10:16am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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We love a little rhythm in our lives, DD 6 LOVES her night rhythm. She actually gets really upset if she misses out on some aspect of it. Some really special one on one time where we read, cuddle and talk... she makes herself a plate of delicious snack to nibble.
JJ (3) loves his nightly breastfeeding rhythm too, he has a giggle, cuddle and some booseys every night.
They cope well when we are not at home but sometimes say how much they miss their special time at night.
These are examples of child led rhythms we have in our house, we have heaps more too. These tend to be special things that they can look forward to each day and they seem to really find comfort in this. All our rhythms are child led and are often changing.
Boundaries..... I have them and so do my kids. I love watching theirs at work. DD 6 will allow a certain amount of rough play from DS 3 and then he hits that boundary and she lets him know she has had enough. I encourage respect for each others boudaries within our family and we pretty much understand each other pretty well I am very flexible with my boundaries, depending on my mood. ie I am prepared to read for an hour or so then I have had enough etc.
ramble over
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serenity
August 15, 2008, 10:49am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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On the subject of routines, we're a very go with the flow type of family. Our routines are based on priorities more than anything else. If the cupboards are bare on Thursday I'll go grocery shopping, if there's enough to last til Saturday, I'll do it then etc. Nothing is set in stone. I think having routines that are too strict can cause more stress for kids and parents. I know a family who had a 'routine' list on the fridge. It was timed down to the minute ... eg. home from childcare at 5, 5.15-5.30 change clothes, 5.30-6 tv, 6-6.30 quality time with Dad (yes even quality time with parents was scheduled.)
The whole evening was timed until bed at 9.30. Only they'd forgotten to "time in" tea If the schedule got broken by 10 minutes all hell would break loose. Parents would get stressed which would make the already tired kids get stroppier and the whole evening would turn into a disaster zone.
I'm sure it must have worked for them, but I'd go batty trying to get a young child to keep to those kind of timetables.
I find DD needs to have tea at 5.00, but that's about the extent of our timetable. Everything else happens when it happens.
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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Sam
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I have found more of a routine kicks in when my kids are old enough to have scheduled classes. Our week atm revolves around my 8yo's tennis, art and dance classes and the two weekly homeschool meets we attend. This is plenty of structure for us. The rest of the time we go with the flow but we tend to have seasonal habits e.g. we always eat our breakfast together outside in Summer and the girls have a bath together in the evenings in Winter. Sometimes I just have to work around my health (if I'm not well we can't go out as much) and other times it's the weather (we cycle everywhere so if it's raining we stay home more) and then to make up for the down time if I feel well and the weather is fine we take advantage of that. I like that dd's classes break for school holidays so we get a few months of no scheduled activities at all. That seems to suit us all best and we love that holiday feeling.
Sam