Self-regulation, radical unschooling, how far do you take it? (Qs about gun play too)

[Ayla]

The ideology of radical unschooling certainly appeals to me, but I am still very much undecided about it all. Part of me thinks that some decisions are unfair to leave up to a child, sometimes even dangerous. Then I think, well what if we draw the analogy of birth into it. Am I lacking trust in RU? Perhaps it's all subjective anyway, every child is different, what's the point of navel-gazing about it now? :lol

But still I wonder, what about gun play? I was of the view of having a no-gun rule in our house, but that doesn't fit in with RUing if our children want to play with guns. My husband's family had a no-gun rule in their home and now two of their sons are in the military, and their daughter considered joining the police force :blueroll Although, really, I don't know how much of the fact of *guns* was appealing when it came to their career choices, moreso the adventure side of it. And maybe it's a more complex tapestry than that. I just find it ironic.

And someone once pointed out that restricting expressions of anger is akin to the Victorian era of restricting sexual expression. But is gun play a healthy expression of anger?? My instinct on that is NO, it's not. But what if by creating a taboo I create an obsession? Gawd, I don't know, see how I'm going around and around in circles?

So how far do you take self-regulation? Are there restrictions/taboos in your house? Are you a no-gun household? What would you do if your children wanted to play with guns?

[Janet]

No guns here. Ever. Gun play is not actually necessary to human development as we know it, it just normalises violence. My children will shout at each other, the little one will hit the bigger one from time to time but we don't encourage that. I'm not adding weapons into the mix and pretending that's ok.

One of my bigger objections to gun play is how it's gendered male and seen as a "natural" part of how boys and men "just are". Bullshit, frankly. It's purely a western construction of what makes men and nothing to do with reality. I homeschool in part because I want my children to avoid being gendered at every turn. I fear for children whose parents see any traits as innate due to what's between their legs. It's our brains that make us who we are, humans have choice in their actions. Some children are exuberant, some children are more introverted. It's not their genitals which make them so despite how so many of us insist it is.

We don't regulate a lot here, but I do choose to privilege my life experience over that of my children and make the space safe for them as I see it. Thus we do not have harmful gendering, violence, or perhaps other things as time passes. My children are being raised to respect themselves and each other, as individuals, not walking genitals. There are few homes which do not choose the parents as gate keepers, we just choose different things to filter.

[Beatrice]

TBH it's never come up for me, neither of my girls are interested in guns. I'm on the fence - I'd go with how passionate my kids were, I think. I say "No" to Bratz because I think they're hideous and oversexualised, but neither of my girls are all that keen on them in the first place. I think I would try to discourage/minimise gunplay (and Bratz, and horrible pink fairy princess bullshit, and a few other things), but if it was something my children were totally passionate about I wouldn't be absolute about my stand.

If there's a huge attachment to something I disapprove of, I'd rather they worked through the impulse behind it in a safe space, with my involvement, rather than repressing it. IME once it's worked out of their system they tend to lose interest much quicker, as well...

[Ayla]

Yes there's those nasty Bratz dolls too, and pink fru fru princess shite. So I guess the answer is that I probably won't be a full-on radical unschooler, but perhaps towards that end a bit, and play it by ear.

Janet, the life experience thing is what sums up my feelings about decisions that are too heavy/unfair/dangerous for kiddies. I would guide a daughter away from buying a Playboy outfit, or smexy lingere at age 7 or something, because she doesn't understand the wider context, yk? At the same time I want to encourage confidence in my children's decision making abilities. It's a fine line, isn't it?

[Janet]

If there's a huge attachment to something I disapprove of, I'd rather they worked through the impulse behind it in a safe space, with my involvement, rather than repressing it. IME once it's worked out of their system they tend to lose interest much quicker, as well...

No repression here. :lol They haven't shown a huge attachment or desire for any of the stuff I consider dangerous. I don't provide it in the first place, is my point. If they suddenly discovered a passion for it, we'd work through it then but it's not prompted by me.

[Ayla]

I don't provide it in the first place, is my point. If they suddenly discovered a passion for it, we'd work through it then but it's not prompted by me.

Ah ha! *Click* Thank you :kotc

[Beatrice]

No repression here. :lol They haven't shown a huge attachment or desire for any of the stuff I consider dangerous. I don't provide it in the first place, is my point. If they suddenly discovered a passion for it, we'd work through it then but it's not prompted by me.

Yup, that's what I meant too. I don't see that I need to bring *everything* into their purview to make sure that they have "choices". But once their awareness broadens beyond the immediate family sphere, then it becomes a matter for negotiation. If it's sufficiently important to them, we'll find a way that all of us can be comfortable with their exploration.

[GreenGully]

My boy has recently become interested in "fighting". This is the kids who would come crying if another child dared to point a pretend gun (finger) at him up until a few weeks ago. All of a sudden he loves guns and fighting sticks apparently. I suspect some television is responsible for his exposure, plus an interest in why people fight (I think we saw some animals fighting on a doco). I talk a lot about how people get hurt when they fight and how it is not a loving thing. I see no point in telling him he is not allowed to play fight, though I do send him outside (to keep the house safe) and ensure that no one gets hurt (ie me cos he is not actually playing with another person). I see it as him exploring violence, what it is etc, becuase he has never really witnessed it irl (or much at all in the media - perhaps on the news). I agree that gun/fight play is not essential to developemnt, but if it is how my son chooses to explore something, I am not going to stop him. If I tried I know it would become a HUGE thing for him, whereas now I feel it is just a passing thing. I will aim to inform him as much as possible. I certainly won't go out and buy him toy guns either (I don't buy him toys anymore full stop), but I wouldn't stop him from buying one himself if he chose (not that he is showing an interest in buying one anyway).
I also work very hard to protect him fromthose in my family who glorify violence (and I believe I have been successful thus far).

[~*heket*~]

My partner grew up in a house where there were real guns but not toy guns. They were used for hunting, and most of the meat they ate was self caught. I think is a really honest way to acquire food, as opposed to the sanitised version we get in the city where the butcher has pictures of happy pigs in the window iykwim :blueroll But owing to the fact that guns were a real part of life, they were NOT used as toys and the kids never questioned that. When they were old enough to go shooting they were ONLY allowed to kill for food. An amusing story about it is that one day they were allowed to take the gun out, and the eldest brother said to my dp "I bet you can't hit that rabbit with this rock". He not only hit it he clean killed it, so they took the gun home unused coz they had dinner for that night :lol

So I think it does depend on a few things, and where you live and how guns are used in your world is going to impact on that. Personally I wouldn't want a gun in the house, and neither would dp these days.

As for bratz and fru fru, the complete polar opposite of guns, we don't do that either. I wanted a "girly" daughter but I lucked out :lol She does lizards and bugs and thiinks dolls are gross!? I reckon that's good coz it saves me from having to regulate on it :blueroll

[~*heket*~]

DISCLAIMER - I should add that I wanted the "girly" daugther when I was 19 and lived in maimy land :lol

[Hush]

Fighting is something I don't worry about too much, and I like what you've said Heket that if children know what guns are for it loses it's toy value. I don't like gun play because it's detached, where as sword play for example it hand to hand face to face and I feel that if a child needs to explore violence I'd much prefer it to be that way. Although there may be more actual injuries that would make the child aware of what their actions cause. Does that make sense?

As for RU fears - my current ones are self regulation regarding TV/computers (but I don't know if parental regulation is a good thing either), and food self regulation.

I think electronic entertainment has a place, and I'd like to think that if I provided him with lots of great alternatives then self regulation wouldn't be such a problem they'd just become a small part of many things we do.

Food I'm still worried about a little. I'm trying to let my instincts rule what I eat at the moment, really listening to what my body wants and seeing how that goes. O has a good balance in what he asks for, partly because we don't keep a lot of junk in the house, and as far as I'm concerned if I think it's good for me to eat then I shouldn't say no to him eating it either.

[~*heket*~]

I think I could probably cope with swords too, coz it's a pirate thing, and I'm addicted to pirates :lol But I'd want to observe it closely.

Watching food self regulation has been an interesting one for us. Our eldest eats everything, the youngest is slowly adding things to his diet. He's gone from not eating protein, to eating macadamia nuts, egg, and cheese (and he ate a sausage roll but I won't boast about that :lol). For me, I gave up sugar and suddenly I could regulate my intake! J explained it to me but I'm too lazy to go into it :blueroll

[Astarte]

Very interesting. I was talking to a friend today about gun play. My sons have no exposure to guns and ideally I wanted to keep it that way. Yesterdya though 2 female police officers came to our house (we'd had a break in). The boys were fascinated by the weapons on their holsters and kept going on and on and on about them. The officers were really good about it and instead of talking about the gun they dusted the door and showed the boys their finger prints.
Since the visit Eben especially has been talking about guns and pretending to carry one on his hip.
How would you deal with this?

[Ceres]

That's a tricky one Astarte. I am really uncomfortable about guns and gun play but given that he is relating to a real life experience I guess I'd probably just discuss what he saw and what he thinks about it. I might use the opportunity to talk about why police carry guns and what they're used for.

[~*heket*~]

Yeah I agree, don't sweat it. Just tell them how you feel :)

[Sarasvati]

We have "swordfights" using the glockenspiel mallets :lol. Gun play hasn't come up here.

[Beatrice]

I bought my kids foam swords two Christmases ago. And since we're in the SCA (altho no one in the family actually does combat) we're around people who use "swords" (padded sticks) in one-to-one or melee encounters, based on historical context. So I don't have a problem with that at all.

Like I said upthread, guns still haven't come up for us. I think it would be harder for us to place into context the same way, though...

[pomegranate_tree]

So how far do you go as parents with gun play? No toy guns in the house I get. But what do you do when your child uses other objects as guns or their own fingers?

Is it just guns that you have issues with or all violent play? Where do you draw the line? And what if your child was writing/telling imaginary stories with violence in them? What if they were making up gory songs? Would this sort of play make you uncomfortable as well? Uncomfortable enough to ban it?

These are all honest questions :) FTR I don't buy weapons for DD (I don't buy lots of things for various reasons - environmental mainly) although she has asked for swords. We have agreed to make a sword for her dress ups though. She does incorporate violence into her games though and I am totally ok with it. Even if it is directed at me or others - as long as the others are ok with it as well.

I think it is her way of processing the world around her and learning. I know this actually because as she grows and becomes more socially and politically aware we discuss these things and I can hear her thoughts on them and how they evolve very clearly.

I am uncomfortable with how toy guns are marketed as well though. I am uncomfortable when DD flicks through a toys catalogue and gets to the weapons/soldiers/heros and says "that's the boys toys". I hate that that sort of conditioning is so entrenched in our society that we sometimes can't see beyond the conditioning itself and we assign undue fear of or disdain towards the objects/toys themselves and don't see the machine behind them. I do this with lots of things (eg. bratz dolls). Sometimes I wish I could trust a little more. Trust that the doll will not have the meaning I think it will to DD and that she will use it in her own way and for her own play and learning. But then of course there is the issue of supporting the companies that perpetuate the conditioning with your money. I won't do that. But I won't disallow the toys either. DD has been gifted things that I would NEVER buy her, but I won't take them away.

So, I guess what I am asking (after all that thinking out loud :lol). Is... where do you draw the line with violent play?

[Beatrice]

I don't have "a line", as such. But I don't like pre-drawn lines ;) We negotiate already for a lot of stuff we don't see eye-to-eye on (although sometimes, I will draw a line, but it takes a lot of exploration before I decide that parental line-drawing rather than ongoing negotiation is the right thing for our family) and I figure that will continue.

But then I am not as bothered by violent play as I am by some other things - in that I have ethical objections to gratuitous violence but it's not an actual trigger for me, iykwim.

[~*heket*~]

I think drawing the line on violent play is a contextual thing. It depends what the game is! My kids play violent games, one pretends to eat the other etc, and that's no big deal. They haven't picked up a weapon as yet tbh so I'm not sure where I would intervene.

[Ayla]

:bump