Ayla
21-11-2008, 06:42 PM
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majikfaerie
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It was asked on another thread, and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.
What is a Radical Unschooler?
in a nutshell: unschoolers are homeschoolers how allow children to learn uninhinderedly, following their own interests and learning from life at their own pace.
raducal unschoolers apply this basic philosophy to all aspects of life, allowing children self-determination in all aspects of life - food, TV, games, clothes, etc (with gentle guidance of course)
hopefully other folk (who aren't tired from a day of unschooled ice skating) will elaborate.
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kali
March 31, 2008, 9:49pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Oh I must be Radical we go with the flow, don't believe in desks and text books or force reading and my children learn alot more in an hour walk than they do in a week of school.
They learn when they watch TV, Cook, garden, play with friends, come with me to the vet (which was todays exciting adventure ) and just about anything else which schooled kids do on holidays and weekends.
Basically my kids are on a permanant holiday woohooo.. I wish I was my mother when I was a kid
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Ayla
March 31, 2008, 10:22pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Thanks for that! I've been meaning to ask you what the diff was for ages. So you never guide your child wrt whether she can watch tv and when, stuff like that?
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majikfaerie
March 31, 2008, 10:47pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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well, I do 'guide', but mostly by talking a lot about how things work.
eg
sugar is X, and it does Y and it is produced by process Z. We read the labels of all the food we eat, and we talk about what the ingredients are and what they do in our bodies. Given that information, and the occasional reminder, DD is free to eat what she wants when she wants. (assuming reasonable availability)
Likewise screen-time, choice of toys and books and media and so on.
TV and food tend to be the main sources of debate :
We don't actually have a TV in our home, but we do have 2 computers and DD has her own portable DVD player which she is free to watch. I guess if she ever asks for a TV, we'll look at getting one. But, yeah, I don't go in for limiting that.
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Ayla
March 31, 2008, 10:58pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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It always comes back to trust doesn't it? I'm still learning that So, how does she do at self-regulating? Does it get better or worse with age? I imagine it would go through phases...
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"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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majikfaerie
March 31, 2008, 11:17pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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yeah, IME it goes through phases. But she really does astound me with her ability to self-regulate.
There have been so many instances of us going into the bakery to get lunch, and she gets her favourite satay pie and a cake. The bakery woman used to offer to keep the cake aside for us so she'll eat up the pie first (and get the sweet for afters, only if she eats the whole pie). I'm guessing it's a service she offers to all the mamas, and most take her up on it. well, I smile and say no thanks, and DD insists on having her cake first. (well duh). but she eats like 2 or 3 bites, and saves the rest for later. then she eats her pie, and gets me to put the cake in the bag for when we get home "because my belly has had enough sweets for now". it often takes her several days to finish a hedgehog.
Sometimes she comes running, desperate for a carrot. sometimes she eats M&Ms for breakfast. but from what I've seen, she doesn't eat any more "junk" than the next kid, she just eats it at her own discretion. and she doesn't have any issues with it.
Every now and then she'll say something like "I know this has a lot of sugar and numbers in it and it will probably make me feel a bit sick, but it's really yummy and I want to eat it anyway." but most of the time, she has sweets in moderation, and she loves to eat fresh foods. Lots of the cookies and sweets and stuff we have is what we've made ourselves, from whole organic ingredients.
DD has a big jar of M&Ms on the shelf (her favourite chocolate). it's been there for ages, and when she feels like it, she'll eat a few. but once a friend of hers came over, who's mother has very strict regulation of sweets. The friend fixated on the M&Ms immidiately, and while DD was happy to have a small handfull and put the rest back, the friend kept going back to the jar. again and again. she polished the lot off in a short time. Poor DD; she didn't understand how this girl could eat a month's supply of M&Ms in an hour!
ETA: I do notice that the phases are quite often connected to *my* moods. when I'm really clear and attentive and connected with DD, she self-regulates really well. but when I'm tired and irritated, and not giving her the energy she needs, she tends to watch a lot of DVDs and eat more sweets.
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Ayla
March 31, 2008, 11:33pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Wow, that's great! It's amazing what respect & trust can acheive. It makes sense that the more forbidden something is the more desirable it becomes...
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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serenity
April 1, 2008, 6:39am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Hi, majikfaerie
I'm wondering how old your child/ren are? I'm sure I've read it somewhere, but can't remember. Pregnancy brain is my excuse and I'm sticking with it
(no hang on, just found it in another post 5 right?! Thank goodness for editing!)
Has this always been your philosophy? As a 2 1/2 - 3 year old did you allow her to self-regulate everything or most things, or did you take control until she was a bit older and showed a bit more common sense?
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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majikfaerie
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good question, serenity
I didn't discover unschooling and child-self-determination till DD was closer to 3yo (she's now almost 5 - in 2 weeks ).
I started out as a parent on a path of breastfeeding as long as the child wants (well, she's still on the boob), and focus on raw foods, no sugar, etc.
It was a slow progression from that to this, and it didn't really come about as a result of anything I read, more as a result of following DD's lead in things. Over time I just got more and more relaxed about stuff.
I do think that having a philosophy of child-self-determination can be initiated from birth, but I don't see any benefit in introducing a lot of foods to a child.
I don't see any good reason to take a toddler and give her a chocolate, and then say, "hey! eat as much as you like". better don't even let them know chocolate exists. Obviously that gets more difficult with older siblings involved, but I do think delaying the introduction of sugars (especially refined ones), colourings and additives for as long as possible is a good idea.
I guess, for my DD, the "treats" came in at around the same age she became aware of them, mostly from exposure to older cousins, and from just being an older child - able to see things on the supermarket shelf and know what they are, and ask for them. I did notice that it was around that same age that she started to become cognitive on a level able to understand all the info I shared with her about sugar and such.
I never did it from an angle of "if you eat that you'll get sick" (imposed consequences), to be honest, most people can eat a bunch of chips and choc without noticing any real effects, though I believe (and have observed) that babies as yet 'untainted' by "junk" are much more sensitive. I explained things to her in the same way I would approach my midwifery clients; something like, "yeah, A does look pretty good, there is X, Y, and Z in it. those things can make you feel xyz, and they are... etc, in your body." I also talked with her about the costs of things, and the benefits of healthier options, and then letting her make her own informed choices.
Keeping in mind that she's just a child who wants to experiment with everything, she did go through times when she ate a lot of M&Ms. But I always observed, over the course of a week, that her diet was just fine, with a majority of her food being whole, organic, homemade stuff. I made my own 'icecream' by freezing bananas and other fruit and running it through the blender. I make a lot of cakes and cookies, all without refined sugar, mostly vegan.
I think the main turning point came when I realised that I couldn't realistically expect that I could keep DD sugar free (well, not unless I was going to be with her 24/7, and deny her the foods she watched her cousins eating). I was going to school 25 hours/ week at the time, and relying heavily on her grandmother for babysitting. A grandmother who shares my ideal of whole, organic homemade foods, but also liked to buy DD Bamba (a kind of Israeli snack, like cheetos, but made from peanuts), and Kinder Surprise Eggs.
I guess it was about the same time I started to read about radical unschooling, so it all tied in. I guess it was around 3.5yo that we got to total freedom on her food. And still, a lot of stuff didn't get into her diet. If we were in the shop, and she saw some red flavoured ice block, or sweeties that she wanted, I could easily re-direct her by saying, "oh look, this has XYZ in it, but this one here, which looks about the same, is all-natural grape juice"
I have drawn a line at Nestle products. I simply wont buy them, and I've explained it to DD that this is a border I wont cross. She's very well informed about Nestle's practices, and why I boycott them. "Nestle" was actually one of the first words she learned to read (I don't know if this is a great or sad thing : ) So far, it's been no problem. if she wants something that is Nestle, I point it out to her and she looks for an alternative. She's even been known to warn strangers in the supermarket that they're buying Nestle!
I guess, from that example, it's possible to make some boundaries, like being vegetarian. (which we aren't). Just explaining where meat comes from and how it's processed is enough to turn most people off meat. But I think the key point is to respect the child's informed choice. My DD knows very well where meat comes from and all that (hey, we started off raw, and her nanny in Tel aviv used to take her to "meat is murder" rallies ), but she still chooses to eat it. She is, in fact, very interested in the killling of animals to make meat. On that score, we only buy local, organic meats, and the occasional self-caught Brush Turkey.
okay, I've been rambling long enough, someone shut me up already
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Cyathea
April 1, 2008, 9:07am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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No, no, keep rambling!! I'm learning heaps
at your daughter warning people about Nestle, what an activist!
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majikfaerie
April 1, 2008, 9:10am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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crap, I really didn't realise how long I'd blathered on for.
really, don't get me started.
actually, now that I look at it, I could copy that ramble out and with a little editing, submit it for work
It looks almost 1000 words. that's another $120 right there! (I write a column on natural parenting for a new-age magazine)
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Ayla
April 1, 2008, 10:19am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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That's so fascinating, please don't stop rambling! And lol @ the Nestle part
We're actually looking for articles to build up the website if you would be willing to write something?
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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majikfaerie
April 1, 2008, 10:23am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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oh yeah, imight be able to come up with something.
a whiles back i wrote a 2 part article on unschooling, which my editor deemed to "radical" (read: anti school - the site tries not to be openly anti anything). i could probably use some of that.
but don't expect anything too soon - I'm preparing to go overseas on saturday!
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Ayla
April 1, 2008, 10:34am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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That would be lovely No rush
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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april
April 1, 2008, 2:30pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
because I can...
Sprout
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oooh how fascinating! I have wondered the difference too, LOL, I looked at the poll on the website and thought what the hell is radical unschooling?
I imagine I swing somewhere in the middle, I think, hehe.
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"You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within himself." -Galileo
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Gelato Mama
April 1, 2008, 3:23pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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this is great!
we have started down the radical unschooling route too. We are finding it occasionally tricky with DS #2 though because like you said we delayed the existence of tv, sugar, commercial cartoon characters etc but now DS #1 might want to watch a dvd which is fine but I'm not so keen on the little guy watching too but with that said DS #1 is great with his food, and isnt into tv much anyway and bedtime has been so much easier - with a strict bedtime we found that it would be fine as long as the normal routine happened but if we were out and it was time for sleep we would have dramas but with him self determining we usually just suggest a 5min rest to see if his body is telling him it needs sleep if not he's free to get back up and wait until he feels more tired. Even when we are out now he knows we aren't going to tell him to stop playing so if we do suggest a rest he's more than willing..and if he's not tired, he's not tired.
can't wait to hear more!!!
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serenity
April 1, 2008, 6:45pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Fantastic reply, thank-you!
Having read through these posts I'm realising that I'm sort of doing this anyway. As an example, today dd was having a play on some websites, to my surprise after about half an hour she packed up the laptop and put it away herself, no prompting from me, she'd just had enough and decided that pulling faces in the bathroom mirror was more fun!
Veggies is another, she just refuses to eat them and I REFUSE to turn meal times into a battle of force feeding her, like so many others do. I always offer them and if she eats them, fantastic, if not I figure her body doesn't need them. She's obviously a very healthy happy little girl, so is not sufferring because of it. In saying that, I've just discovered that she'll eat them raw, grated and in tacos. So guess what we have for tea at least twice a week!
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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majikfaerie
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interesting, serenity. my DD doesn't do cooked veg much either. but raw (not mixed in a salad) she'll eat heaps of cucumbers and tomoatoes and carrots. recently we found that she now likes baked root veg, like potatoes, yams, carrots, etc.
she likes fruit too, but she's quite picky about how things are combined. she loves quinoa too
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serenity
April 2, 2008, 8:02am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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It's all good, raw is better than cooked anyway!
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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greendraggon
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I love your long reply mjf, your description of how it evolved for you is quite pertinent for at the moment
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majikfaerie
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I guess it's not for everyone.
It doesn't work for some folk, and there are people who fear the potential damage to the body from eating "junk" more than any issues with food restriction.
but it's working wonderfully for us
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lunabloom
April 9, 2008, 10:49am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I have to say i don't like the term radical unschooling. It doesn't really represent what it is about. But since i don't have a better idea for a term for it {i don't mind consensual living}, i guess i'll have to just stick to what is commonly used.
For me "radical unschooling" flowed naturally from unhindered birth and breastfeeding. I trusted my body and my baby in birth, i trusted my baby to know when she needed to breastfeed and when to sleep, i trust her now as a young child to know what her body needs and when. The beauty of "radical unschooling" to me is that it helps the child stay in touch with their own body, and to know for themselves what does and doesn't work for them. Really the only thing children learn from parents restricting what they eat, is how to control people.
I think control has become such a problem in our culture that it has become a default mode of being. I love RU because it takes control out of the equation. I don't feel comfortable controling what another person can and cannot do, especially my daughter.
I see it {RU}as living authentically and honestly and treating her with the respect she deserves as an individual. Children are so lied to and manipulated and controlled in overt and subtle ways, spoken to in ways adults would never speak to each other, and all in the name of "their own good" or to teach them how to act or speak. When really all they learn is how to be how their parents are to them...dishonest, manipulative and controlling. And i think the earlier you start RU the better. Children are learning from us how to be, long before they are verbal. The beautiful thing is, if we control our own behaviour, and model respect and honesty and authenticity, that is exactly how our children will be.
I've found that my daughter is far more capable of making good decisions for herself for being free to make her own decisions, rather than needing to choose reacting or rebelling against rules or regulations laid down by me. We have had a jar of snakes{you know the jelly ones} sitting around the loungeroom for a month and she will eat one every so often, cz she knows they are there when she wants them and not something she needs to binge on cz they're on a restricted list. She will happily get a carrot out of the fridge for a snack. I think it is our attitudes to "healthy" and "treat" foods that gives them the power over us that we struggle against.
Just as birth can be ecstatic and beautiful and simple process if we step back and allow it to happen in it's own time...raising children can be exactly the same.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Gullygirl
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Seedling
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ahh it is all making soo much sense to me. I can see i have a lot of work to do deschooling myself. will come back to this later
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Ilithyia
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Thanks so much for this thread! Lunabloom, what you said about control is really interesting, and I think you've made me uncover my unease about unschooling as opposed homeschooling. I'm a control freak! Initially I wanted to homeschool because I didn't trust the system to do a good job -- I wanted to control what my children learn and how and when. But I didn't realise this until reading this thread.
I freebirthed my daughter, and throughout trusted her to do what she needed to do, to take the time she needed, and we had a wonderful birth experience because of it. It was the first time I really challenged myself to trust and surrender and accept that I am not in control and that's a good thing. Now I am beginning to realise how the same approach could make for a wonderful learning experience for both of us too...
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Ayla
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Beautiful post Lunabloom, thank you
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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lunabloom
April 9, 2008, 3:07pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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thats awesome Ilithyia...a realization like that is the first huge step toward freedom for you and your little people.
i'm a recovering control-freak myself, i grew up with a super controlling mother and it has taken me all of my 34 years to tease out what in me is reaction, rebellion to her and what is truly me. i don't want to put my daughter through that.
and the really beautiful thing that i've noticed is, when you stop controlling everything according to what you fear will happen otherwise or what you've decided is the outcome you want, you open the space for truly amazing things to happen, that you never could have envisioned.
controlling people takes so much effort...letting them unfurl themselves is effortless.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Mumma2Mia
April 9, 2008, 7:29pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Lunabloom, agree with you 100%!
We pretty much fell into US too. I think respect sums it all up.
In all my parenting years (only 6!) I have never shined to to the manipulative parenting strategies that most take on board. People manipulate to get what they want. Control-crying, time-out, any element of punishment or reward (yes, this can include praise!) is done so in the hope of moulding the child as the parent sees fit.
I've said it once and I'll say it again - if a child of mine were to grow up a liberal voting boot-scooter (my worst nightmare!), I would hope at the time it matters not to me, so long as my child is confident, happy and can problem-solve without doubt.
So yeah, it's the relationship with the child that takes precedence over 'stuff' such as TV, food habits, etc. My son often asks for carrot and cucumber sticks for breakfast (3). Over Easter, it appeared he stuffed his face, but he also shared his abundance of choccy eggs with others. There was no coercion on anyone's behalf that he share; he chose to on his own accord. He proved to be too young to self-regulate, but the fact that he wanted to share his joy with others is enough for me! Mia (6) has fantastic self-regulation. She still has a stash of choccy from Easter in her room!
I used to say to Mia that I refused to buy her Barbies, My Little Ponies, etc, because of sweatshop, plastic, etc, etc. I was angry that she still wanted these things, even after telling her about the negatives associated. This is certainly an element of control - I've since told her why I don't think we should support such manufacturing, now the ball is in her court. She has a few plastic dolls and ponies now, and I know she has made an informed choice. I certainly don't like it, but I accept it! It would be disrespectful of me to deem what is important to her, not important.
I too could chat about this for ever!!
Congratulations on this wonderful forum. Looking forward to keeping in touch with others of similar ideals - the challenges are endless! Support will be embraced.
Kathryn
Kathryn
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Ayla
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Quoted from Mumma2Mia
I think respect sums it all up.
Yes yes and yes! I agree
I really love reading about these experiences, it's so heartening
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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lunabloom
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Quoted from Mumma2Mia
He proved to be too young to self-regulate, but the fact that he wanted to share his joy with others is enough for me!
He did self-regulate...he ate what he wanted when he wanted and gave away what he didn't... it just didn't look like what you would choose as ideal self-regulating!
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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majikfaerie
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Quoted from Ayla
Beautiful post Lunabloom, thank you
yes indeed!
ITA
I'm also not a huge fan of the word "radical unschooling" but since it's the standard term, I go with it.
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Cyathea
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I like that it forces you to examine your own choices & behaviour a lot more, and you have to be really 'honest' in the way you live, as you cannot fall back on the whole "Just do as i say" kind of crap, which is really incongruent, and pretty confusing to a child I dare say!
I'm going to lok further into consensual living Alex, I like the sound of it.
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lunabloom
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Quoted from 3
I like that it forces you to examine your own choices & behaviour a lot more, and you have to be really 'honest' in the way you live, as you cannot fall back on the whole "Just do as i say" kind of crap, which is really incongruent, and pretty confusing to a child I dare say!
so much of modern parenting is confusing and bloody unfair to kids. you see mums having a tantrum just like a little kid, then when the kid does it {copying exactly what their mum is doing!} they get punished. i'd be jumping out of my skin if i was being treated so hypocritically!
there is a quote by carl jung i really love..."If there is anything we wish to change in the child, we should first examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed in ourselves."
i believe the only really acceptable form of control is self-control. and i think that is why so many people keep trying to control their children...as a culture we have very little self-control, self-responsibility, self-discipline.
the more we control children, and take responsibility for more of their lives than necessary, the less they learn those things for themselves. and the greater the burdon raising children is on us. i would go mental if i was taking on the responsibility of when and how my kid sleeps and eats. i've got better things to do with my time, and she is a more fulfilled person for being responsible for those things herself.
kids are infinitely more capable at much earlier age than our society gives them credit for.
i just realized i'm talking really theoretically, so i should give a IRL example.
Mira and i have been co-sleeping in a loft bed {6ft high} since she was about 1 1/2yr. she'd fall asleep in the loungeroom in the evening, and i'll go to bed in the loft bed later. she wakes up in the middle of the night, walks down the hallway, climbs up the ladder and snuggles back to sleep with boob. now she has a little bed under the loft {her nest she calls it} and she'll sleep in there sometimes and then come up to the loft in the middle of the night when she wakes. i guess the point is...a 1 1/2 yr old is perfectly capable of climbing a 6ft ladder in the middle of the night, only half awake. i have friends who still wont let their 4yr old climb the same ladder without angsty suppervision.
ang... have you checked out any of the unschooling yahoo groups? that's were i first came across consensual living {on some american groups}...it's kinda tyed in with NVC and radical unschooling...is it cool if i put the web addresses for a couple on here or should i PM you??
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Cyathea
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I've just joined a CL yahoo group Thanks!! I'm reading everything I can about it.
Yep links on here are fine I'm so glad you are on here Alex, I really appreciate your views
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Beatrice
April 10, 2008, 9:59am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I agree with the self-control comments - we have screentime restrictions largely because I need them B agrees with me that we both need a kick up the bum to get out of our ruts and back into the habit of togetherness because that's what's currently broken in our house. Hopefully we'll be able to stop using such a blunt instrument as "screens off at 10am" sooner rather than later and go back to total self-regulation.
Would say more but have run out of time
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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lunabloom
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i really love AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com
it's sandra dodd's group and has awesome practical advice for living this way with a family. it's a really busy list...i just lurk mostly, but the archives are really helpful when needing help with a specific issue.
AlwaysUnschooled@yahoogroups.com is also great.
i find it so helpful reading stuff by people who're at the same stage i'm at and also people who have been radical unschooling or consensual living for 15 yrs. great perspective.
i find this whole way of life so exciting...and it's great that more people are becoming interested in living this way.
i've found it really difficult sociallizing sometimes when the underlying principles of my way of being with mira is so different to how other people deal with their kids. it makes it really tricky problem solving when others advice to me is to put on the authoritarian voice and basically put her in her place. i have lost friendships over it, which is really sad, but my priority is my relationship with my daughter, and being authoritarian doesn't nurture connection with her, or model behaviour that i value.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Mumma2Mia
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Quoted Text
He did self-regulate...he ate what he wanted when he wanted and gave away what he didn't... it just didn't look like what you would choose as ideal self-regulating!
Very true, Lunabloom. Personal conditioning has such a strong influence on how we perceive things!
Quoted Text
i have lost friendships over it, which is really sad, but my priority is my relationship with my daughter, and being authoritarian doesn't nurture connection with her, or model behaviour that i value.
I too have experienced misunderstanding and confrontation with friends. Then my issues with 'control' raise their ugly head, because it frustrates me that they don't see the benefits!!
Kathryn
Mum to Mia, Jude and Rueben
http://www.preferorganic.biz
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Mumma2Mia
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I also think a common misconception among outsiders is that the child is not only controlling the parent, but also not allowing the parent to meet their own needs. I know I am seen by some as as mother who has sacrificed so much of my self - which is simply not true!
Kathryn
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http://www.preferorganic.biz
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Beatrice
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I reckon most people here would love Always Unschooled. I hung out there a few years ago til I got busy with babies again and had to prune my email lists. It's really good for addressing the whole-of-life aspects of radical unschooling, like bringing up kids from birth without arbitrary food and screentime limits. Another really lovely and inspirational group is Shine with Unschooling, also at yahoo. I love Anne Ohman
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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Ayla
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It's a shame they're email lists, I find email groups so limiting
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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greendraggon
April 10, 2008, 4:25pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I been lurking on AU for nearly a year & love it
Ayla, this is probably one thing I like better as an email list. Most of the posts are looooooooooooooooooooooooooong (and very thoughtful) and I find it easier even though I like forums.
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majikfaerie
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I was on AU and several other lists a few years ago, and in the end, I just got irritated by Sandra Dodd's style. she really does have a lot of wonderful things to say, and I do understand where she's coming from, but I find that she (and the crowd she runs with) most definitely do NOT treat other parents with the same gentleness they afford their children. they can be downright horrible to mothers who are just starting out on the unschooling journey.
I see that they were really the pioneers of all this, and had to cop a lot of flack over the years, so they've really built up a very strong defense system. but they can be very damning and insulting to people who aren't in the same place they are.
I do feel that I came to radical unschooling in spite of Sandra Dodd.
that said, the yahoo lists are good resources. I think i'm still a member of about a dozen of them, though I haven't read messages in a long while. and now I've got this place, maybe never again :
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Sam
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Quoted from majikfaerie
I was on AU and several other lists a few years ago, and in the end, I just got irritated by Sandra Dodd's style. she really does have a lot of wonderful things to say, and I do understand where she's coming from, but I find that she (and the crowd she runs with) most definitely do NOT treat other parents with the same gentleness they afford their children. they can be downright horrible to mothers who are just starting out on the unschooling journey.
I do agree about the hard core flavour of the Always Unschooled (AU) list that you are talking about but I'd like to speak in defence of Sandra Dodd since she isn't able to do so herself and she is being personally criticized here.
The Always Unschooled list is for those already understanding and already practising Radical Unschooling. They make that very clear in the group outline. There are loads of other unschooling lists where Sandra Dodd and others from AU regularly post and their posts there are respectful of the particular outline of those groups. For some reason people who are new to the concept of RU want to be on the AU list and because they lack understanding of what RU is their posts are often inappropriate. The AU list is also not a forum for debating the merits of RU - it's for those already practising it. Yet many times that is what posters are trying to do - debate about or criticise RU. These are the posters who get the hard core replies. It is also made very clear when you sign up to AU that you are expected to read for a few weeks so that you can understand the flavour of the list and determine if it is the list for you. Despite this requirement newbies jump on in with inappropriate posts before they have read a while. I know listmembers there can be blunt but it must be very annoying for Sandra and others at AU to have to constantly remind people that they are in the wrong place and redirect them to the appropriate lists just because these members rudely didn't bother reading the outline or couldn't respect the group guidelines.
I love AU for the same reason that I love JB - they don't water things down just so people feel more comfortable. There are very few places just for those of us practising RU simply because there are so few of us. I don't know a single other family in real life practising RU. I love that I can go to AU and not have to wade through heaps of other homeschooling ideas or even anti homeschooling ideas. Complaining about Sandra being honest and blunt with people who are being anti-RU on a RU list is a bit like going to JB and then complaining because the advice is too straightforward not gentle enough with people who are trying to promote unnatural births.
Sam
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lunabloom
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ITA Sam...it is clearly stated in the info that you receive when you sign up to Always Unschooled and Always Learning, what the list is about and what is expected of members. I love that they delve so deeply into the way their thinking effects what is possible in their lives. It's almost like free therapy if you can put aside defensive reactions and use what is said as a tool to better understand yourself.
It's rare to find honestly given objective insights and they're something i really value.
Sandra Dodd often makes the point that every second parents spend fooling themselves and excusing shitty treatment of their kids is robbing those kids of a better childhood.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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majikfaerie
April 11, 2008, 2:43pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I agree with you, Sam. but I do notice that attitude from them not just on AU. I've just seen so many genuinely interested people get so hurt and turned away from unschooling there. it would be so much easier to simply say to the newbies "this group is more for the support of experienced unschoolers, perhaps you should try XYZ group" or something similar.
and yes, I've had this exact same discussion with Sandra Dodd.
From what she said, I got the impression that her stance is that anyone who is questioning it or "not getting it", is attacking her, and she needs to attack back.
I'm not saying Dodd is bad, or the group is bad. it just wasn't a good fit for me.
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Sam
April 11, 2008, 3:26pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I can see why anti RU posts might feel like at attack to Sandra. I myself find it easy to ignore ignorant comments I hear in public or on other lists that aren't mine but I feel more "attacked" when it's comments made at my own home or on my own lists.
You can be totally new to radical unschooling and be on the RU list as long as you are not putting RU down.
When I go to that list I don't want to have to defend RU or listen to people who have never done it put it down or listen to a bunch or ridiculous presumptions about it because that's what I have to do everywhere else and it's exhausting and taints the list. What the RU women would actually like to say to the people who go to that list and then take up list time arguing against RU is probably way more short and unsweet than the blunt posts they make. I think they are probably restraining themselves.
I also don't think they have any interes in getting more people onboard with RU and that's certainly not what that list is for. If going to that list turns people off unschooling so be it. I'd say that if finding one group of women on a list mean spirited was enough to put you off unschooling then you were never really going to be an unschooler anyway. It would take more than people being mean to change my core principles and belief system. Actually people are really mean to me about RU all the time and I have been called names, told I am a bad or negligent parent, been seriously verbally attacked on a regular basis by my mother who then walks out of my house or hangs up on me etc...and that's from friends, family, other homeschoolers and natural parents. Even if everybody in the world thought I was bonkers I still couldn't bring myself to school my kids at home or elsewhere when I don't think that's best for them.
It's funny you should say that people are going there and getting putt of unschooling because I generally find AU a haven but I get put off visiting that list by those very people. Sometimes you get a run of posts from people who don't "get" or like the list complaining and arguing against RU. It really takes the fun out of reading there because it's the same conversation and the same tired arguments from these people over and over again - it's as if their posts are scripted it's so predictable. It's a bit of a bumer because like I said there aren't many places for people who are RUers.
I would like it if more people RUed because then my kids would have more friends like them but I wouldn't want anybody doing it who didn't believe wholeheartedly in it.
Sam
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majikfaerie
March 31, 2008, 9:35pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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It was asked on another thread, and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.
What is a Radical Unschooler?
in a nutshell: unschoolers are homeschoolers how allow children to learn uninhinderedly, following their own interests and learning from life at their own pace.
raducal unschoolers apply this basic philosophy to all aspects of life, allowing children self-determination in all aspects of life - food, TV, games, clothes, etc (with gentle guidance of course)
hopefully other folk (who aren't tired from a day of unschooled ice skating) will elaborate.
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kali
March 31, 2008, 9:49pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Oh I must be Radical we go with the flow, don't believe in desks and text books or force reading and my children learn alot more in an hour walk than they do in a week of school.
They learn when they watch TV, Cook, garden, play with friends, come with me to the vet (which was todays exciting adventure ) and just about anything else which schooled kids do on holidays and weekends.
Basically my kids are on a permanant holiday woohooo.. I wish I was my mother when I was a kid
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Ayla
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Thanks for that! I've been meaning to ask you what the diff was for ages. So you never guide your child wrt whether she can watch tv and when, stuff like that?
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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majikfaerie
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well, I do 'guide', but mostly by talking a lot about how things work.
eg
sugar is X, and it does Y and it is produced by process Z. We read the labels of all the food we eat, and we talk about what the ingredients are and what they do in our bodies. Given that information, and the occasional reminder, DD is free to eat what she wants when she wants. (assuming reasonable availability)
Likewise screen-time, choice of toys and books and media and so on.
TV and food tend to be the main sources of debate :
We don't actually have a TV in our home, but we do have 2 computers and DD has her own portable DVD player which she is free to watch. I guess if she ever asks for a TV, we'll look at getting one. But, yeah, I don't go in for limiting that.
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Ayla
March 31, 2008, 10:58pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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It always comes back to trust doesn't it? I'm still learning that So, how does she do at self-regulating? Does it get better or worse with age? I imagine it would go through phases...
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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majikfaerie
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yeah, IME it goes through phases. But she really does astound me with her ability to self-regulate.
There have been so many instances of us going into the bakery to get lunch, and she gets her favourite satay pie and a cake. The bakery woman used to offer to keep the cake aside for us so she'll eat up the pie first (and get the sweet for afters, only if she eats the whole pie). I'm guessing it's a service she offers to all the mamas, and most take her up on it. well, I smile and say no thanks, and DD insists on having her cake first. (well duh). but she eats like 2 or 3 bites, and saves the rest for later. then she eats her pie, and gets me to put the cake in the bag for when we get home "because my belly has had enough sweets for now". it often takes her several days to finish a hedgehog.
Sometimes she comes running, desperate for a carrot. sometimes she eats M&Ms for breakfast. but from what I've seen, she doesn't eat any more "junk" than the next kid, she just eats it at her own discretion. and she doesn't have any issues with it.
Every now and then she'll say something like "I know this has a lot of sugar and numbers in it and it will probably make me feel a bit sick, but it's really yummy and I want to eat it anyway." but most of the time, she has sweets in moderation, and she loves to eat fresh foods. Lots of the cookies and sweets and stuff we have is what we've made ourselves, from whole organic ingredients.
DD has a big jar of M&Ms on the shelf (her favourite chocolate). it's been there for ages, and when she feels like it, she'll eat a few. but once a friend of hers came over, who's mother has very strict regulation of sweets. The friend fixated on the M&Ms immidiately, and while DD was happy to have a small handfull and put the rest back, the friend kept going back to the jar. again and again. she polished the lot off in a short time. Poor DD; she didn't understand how this girl could eat a month's supply of M&Ms in an hour!
ETA: I do notice that the phases are quite often connected to *my* moods. when I'm really clear and attentive and connected with DD, she self-regulates really well. but when I'm tired and irritated, and not giving her the energy she needs, she tends to watch a lot of DVDs and eat more sweets.
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Ayla
March 31, 2008, 11:33pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Wow, that's great! It's amazing what respect & trust can acheive. It makes sense that the more forbidden something is the more desirable it becomes...
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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serenity
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Hi, majikfaerie
I'm wondering how old your child/ren are? I'm sure I've read it somewhere, but can't remember. Pregnancy brain is my excuse and I'm sticking with it
(no hang on, just found it in another post 5 right?! Thank goodness for editing!)
Has this always been your philosophy? As a 2 1/2 - 3 year old did you allow her to self-regulate everything or most things, or did you take control until she was a bit older and showed a bit more common sense?
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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majikfaerie
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good question, serenity
I didn't discover unschooling and child-self-determination till DD was closer to 3yo (she's now almost 5 - in 2 weeks ).
I started out as a parent on a path of breastfeeding as long as the child wants (well, she's still on the boob), and focus on raw foods, no sugar, etc.
It was a slow progression from that to this, and it didn't really come about as a result of anything I read, more as a result of following DD's lead in things. Over time I just got more and more relaxed about stuff.
I do think that having a philosophy of child-self-determination can be initiated from birth, but I don't see any benefit in introducing a lot of foods to a child.
I don't see any good reason to take a toddler and give her a chocolate, and then say, "hey! eat as much as you like". better don't even let them know chocolate exists. Obviously that gets more difficult with older siblings involved, but I do think delaying the introduction of sugars (especially refined ones), colourings and additives for as long as possible is a good idea.
I guess, for my DD, the "treats" came in at around the same age she became aware of them, mostly from exposure to older cousins, and from just being an older child - able to see things on the supermarket shelf and know what they are, and ask for them. I did notice that it was around that same age that she started to become cognitive on a level able to understand all the info I shared with her about sugar and such.
I never did it from an angle of "if you eat that you'll get sick" (imposed consequences), to be honest, most people can eat a bunch of chips and choc without noticing any real effects, though I believe (and have observed) that babies as yet 'untainted' by "junk" are much more sensitive. I explained things to her in the same way I would approach my midwifery clients; something like, "yeah, A does look pretty good, there is X, Y, and Z in it. those things can make you feel xyz, and they are... etc, in your body." I also talked with her about the costs of things, and the benefits of healthier options, and then letting her make her own informed choices.
Keeping in mind that she's just a child who wants to experiment with everything, she did go through times when she ate a lot of M&Ms. But I always observed, over the course of a week, that her diet was just fine, with a majority of her food being whole, organic, homemade stuff. I made my own 'icecream' by freezing bananas and other fruit and running it through the blender. I make a lot of cakes and cookies, all without refined sugar, mostly vegan.
I think the main turning point came when I realised that I couldn't realistically expect that I could keep DD sugar free (well, not unless I was going to be with her 24/7, and deny her the foods she watched her cousins eating). I was going to school 25 hours/ week at the time, and relying heavily on her grandmother for babysitting. A grandmother who shares my ideal of whole, organic homemade foods, but also liked to buy DD Bamba (a kind of Israeli snack, like cheetos, but made from peanuts), and Kinder Surprise Eggs.
I guess it was about the same time I started to read about radical unschooling, so it all tied in. I guess it was around 3.5yo that we got to total freedom on her food. And still, a lot of stuff didn't get into her diet. If we were in the shop, and she saw some red flavoured ice block, or sweeties that she wanted, I could easily re-direct her by saying, "oh look, this has XYZ in it, but this one here, which looks about the same, is all-natural grape juice"
I have drawn a line at Nestle products. I simply wont buy them, and I've explained it to DD that this is a border I wont cross. She's very well informed about Nestle's practices, and why I boycott them. "Nestle" was actually one of the first words she learned to read (I don't know if this is a great or sad thing : ) So far, it's been no problem. if she wants something that is Nestle, I point it out to her and she looks for an alternative. She's even been known to warn strangers in the supermarket that they're buying Nestle!
I guess, from that example, it's possible to make some boundaries, like being vegetarian. (which we aren't). Just explaining where meat comes from and how it's processed is enough to turn most people off meat. But I think the key point is to respect the child's informed choice. My DD knows very well where meat comes from and all that (hey, we started off raw, and her nanny in Tel aviv used to take her to "meat is murder" rallies ), but she still chooses to eat it. She is, in fact, very interested in the killling of animals to make meat. On that score, we only buy local, organic meats, and the occasional self-caught Brush Turkey.
okay, I've been rambling long enough, someone shut me up already
It takes a village
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Cyathea
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No, no, keep rambling!! I'm learning heaps
at your daughter warning people about Nestle, what an activist!
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majikfaerie
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crap, I really didn't realise how long I'd blathered on for.
really, don't get me started.
actually, now that I look at it, I could copy that ramble out and with a little editing, submit it for work
It looks almost 1000 words. that's another $120 right there! (I write a column on natural parenting for a new-age magazine)
It takes a village
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Ayla
April 1, 2008, 10:19am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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That's so fascinating, please don't stop rambling! And lol @ the Nestle part
We're actually looking for articles to build up the website if you would be willing to write something?
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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majikfaerie
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oh yeah, imight be able to come up with something.
a whiles back i wrote a 2 part article on unschooling, which my editor deemed to "radical" (read: anti school - the site tries not to be openly anti anything). i could probably use some of that.
but don't expect anything too soon - I'm preparing to go overseas on saturday!
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Ayla
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That would be lovely No rush
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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april
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because I can...
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oooh how fascinating! I have wondered the difference too, LOL, I looked at the poll on the website and thought what the hell is radical unschooling?
I imagine I swing somewhere in the middle, I think, hehe.
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"You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within himself." -Galileo
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Gelato Mama
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this is great!
we have started down the radical unschooling route too. We are finding it occasionally tricky with DS #2 though because like you said we delayed the existence of tv, sugar, commercial cartoon characters etc but now DS #1 might want to watch a dvd which is fine but I'm not so keen on the little guy watching too but with that said DS #1 is great with his food, and isnt into tv much anyway and bedtime has been so much easier - with a strict bedtime we found that it would be fine as long as the normal routine happened but if we were out and it was time for sleep we would have dramas but with him self determining we usually just suggest a 5min rest to see if his body is telling him it needs sleep if not he's free to get back up and wait until he feels more tired. Even when we are out now he knows we aren't going to tell him to stop playing so if we do suggest a rest he's more than willing..and if he's not tired, he's not tired.
can't wait to hear more!!!
_________________
"It may then fairly be inferred, that, till society be differently constituted, much cannot be expected from education." Mary Wollstonecraft
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DS - 2yrs mmmm spicy hot yum yum
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serenity
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Fantastic reply, thank-you!
Having read through these posts I'm realising that I'm sort of doing this anyway. As an example, today dd was having a play on some websites, to my surprise after about half an hour she packed up the laptop and put it away herself, no prompting from me, she'd just had enough and decided that pulling faces in the bathroom mirror was more fun!
Veggies is another, she just refuses to eat them and I REFUSE to turn meal times into a battle of force feeding her, like so many others do. I always offer them and if she eats them, fantastic, if not I figure her body doesn't need them. She's obviously a very healthy happy little girl, so is not sufferring because of it. In saying that, I've just discovered that she'll eat them raw, grated and in tacos. So guess what we have for tea at least twice a week!
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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majikfaerie
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interesting, serenity. my DD doesn't do cooked veg much either. but raw (not mixed in a salad) she'll eat heaps of cucumbers and tomoatoes and carrots. recently we found that she now likes baked root veg, like potatoes, yams, carrots, etc.
she likes fruit too, but she's quite picky about how things are combined. she loves quinoa too
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serenity
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It's all good, raw is better than cooked anyway!
DD 3 "I fell in a muddle" [muddy puddle]
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greendraggon
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I love your long reply mjf, your description of how it evolved for you is quite pertinent for at the moment
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majikfaerie
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I guess it's not for everyone.
It doesn't work for some folk, and there are people who fear the potential damage to the body from eating "junk" more than any issues with food restriction.
but it's working wonderfully for us
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lunabloom
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I have to say i don't like the term radical unschooling. It doesn't really represent what it is about. But since i don't have a better idea for a term for it {i don't mind consensual living}, i guess i'll have to just stick to what is commonly used.
For me "radical unschooling" flowed naturally from unhindered birth and breastfeeding. I trusted my body and my baby in birth, i trusted my baby to know when she needed to breastfeed and when to sleep, i trust her now as a young child to know what her body needs and when. The beauty of "radical unschooling" to me is that it helps the child stay in touch with their own body, and to know for themselves what does and doesn't work for them. Really the only thing children learn from parents restricting what they eat, is how to control people.
I think control has become such a problem in our culture that it has become a default mode of being. I love RU because it takes control out of the equation. I don't feel comfortable controling what another person can and cannot do, especially my daughter.
I see it {RU}as living authentically and honestly and treating her with the respect she deserves as an individual. Children are so lied to and manipulated and controlled in overt and subtle ways, spoken to in ways adults would never speak to each other, and all in the name of "their own good" or to teach them how to act or speak. When really all they learn is how to be how their parents are to them...dishonest, manipulative and controlling. And i think the earlier you start RU the better. Children are learning from us how to be, long before they are verbal. The beautiful thing is, if we control our own behaviour, and model respect and honesty and authenticity, that is exactly how our children will be.
I've found that my daughter is far more capable of making good decisions for herself for being free to make her own decisions, rather than needing to choose reacting or rebelling against rules or regulations laid down by me. We have had a jar of snakes{you know the jelly ones} sitting around the loungeroom for a month and she will eat one every so often, cz she knows they are there when she wants them and not something she needs to binge on cz they're on a restricted list. She will happily get a carrot out of the fridge for a snack. I think it is our attitudes to "healthy" and "treat" foods that gives them the power over us that we struggle against.
Just as birth can be ecstatic and beautiful and simple process if we step back and allow it to happen in it's own time...raising children can be exactly the same.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Gullygirl
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Seedling
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ahh it is all making soo much sense to me. I can see i have a lot of work to do deschooling myself. will come back to this later
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Ilithyia
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Thanks so much for this thread! Lunabloom, what you said about control is really interesting, and I think you've made me uncover my unease about unschooling as opposed homeschooling. I'm a control freak! Initially I wanted to homeschool because I didn't trust the system to do a good job -- I wanted to control what my children learn and how and when. But I didn't realise this until reading this thread.
I freebirthed my daughter, and throughout trusted her to do what she needed to do, to take the time she needed, and we had a wonderful birth experience because of it. It was the first time I really challenged myself to trust and surrender and accept that I am not in control and that's a good thing. Now I am beginning to realise how the same approach could make for a wonderful learning experience for both of us too...
Student Doula
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Ayla
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Beautiful post Lunabloom, thank you
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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lunabloom
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thats awesome Ilithyia...a realization like that is the first huge step toward freedom for you and your little people.
i'm a recovering control-freak myself, i grew up with a super controlling mother and it has taken me all of my 34 years to tease out what in me is reaction, rebellion to her and what is truly me. i don't want to put my daughter through that.
and the really beautiful thing that i've noticed is, when you stop controlling everything according to what you fear will happen otherwise or what you've decided is the outcome you want, you open the space for truly amazing things to happen, that you never could have envisioned.
controlling people takes so much effort...letting them unfurl themselves is effortless.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Mumma2Mia
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Lunabloom, agree with you 100%!
We pretty much fell into US too. I think respect sums it all up.
In all my parenting years (only 6!) I have never shined to to the manipulative parenting strategies that most take on board. People manipulate to get what they want. Control-crying, time-out, any element of punishment or reward (yes, this can include praise!) is done so in the hope of moulding the child as the parent sees fit.
I've said it once and I'll say it again - if a child of mine were to grow up a liberal voting boot-scooter (my worst nightmare!), I would hope at the time it matters not to me, so long as my child is confident, happy and can problem-solve without doubt.
So yeah, it's the relationship with the child that takes precedence over 'stuff' such as TV, food habits, etc. My son often asks for carrot and cucumber sticks for breakfast (3). Over Easter, it appeared he stuffed his face, but he also shared his abundance of choccy eggs with others. There was no coercion on anyone's behalf that he share; he chose to on his own accord. He proved to be too young to self-regulate, but the fact that he wanted to share his joy with others is enough for me! Mia (6) has fantastic self-regulation. She still has a stash of choccy from Easter in her room!
I used to say to Mia that I refused to buy her Barbies, My Little Ponies, etc, because of sweatshop, plastic, etc, etc. I was angry that she still wanted these things, even after telling her about the negatives associated. This is certainly an element of control - I've since told her why I don't think we should support such manufacturing, now the ball is in her court. She has a few plastic dolls and ponies now, and I know she has made an informed choice. I certainly don't like it, but I accept it! It would be disrespectful of me to deem what is important to her, not important.
I too could chat about this for ever!!
Congratulations on this wonderful forum. Looking forward to keeping in touch with others of similar ideals - the challenges are endless! Support will be embraced.
Kathryn
Kathryn
Mum to Mia, Jude and Rueben
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Ayla
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Quoted from Mumma2Mia
I think respect sums it all up.
Yes yes and yes! I agree
I really love reading about these experiences, it's so heartening
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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lunabloom
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Quoted from Mumma2Mia
He proved to be too young to self-regulate, but the fact that he wanted to share his joy with others is enough for me!
He did self-regulate...he ate what he wanted when he wanted and gave away what he didn't... it just didn't look like what you would choose as ideal self-regulating!
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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majikfaerie
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Quoted from Ayla
Beautiful post Lunabloom, thank you
yes indeed!
ITA
I'm also not a huge fan of the word "radical unschooling" but since it's the standard term, I go with it.
It takes a village
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Cyathea
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I like that it forces you to examine your own choices & behaviour a lot more, and you have to be really 'honest' in the way you live, as you cannot fall back on the whole "Just do as i say" kind of crap, which is really incongruent, and pretty confusing to a child I dare say!
I'm going to lok further into consensual living Alex, I like the sound of it.
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lunabloom
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Quoted from 3
I like that it forces you to examine your own choices & behaviour a lot more, and you have to be really 'honest' in the way you live, as you cannot fall back on the whole "Just do as i say" kind of crap, which is really incongruent, and pretty confusing to a child I dare say!
so much of modern parenting is confusing and bloody unfair to kids. you see mums having a tantrum just like a little kid, then when the kid does it {copying exactly what their mum is doing!} they get punished. i'd be jumping out of my skin if i was being treated so hypocritically!
there is a quote by carl jung i really love..."If there is anything we wish to change in the child, we should first examine it and see whether it is not something that could better be changed in ourselves."
i believe the only really acceptable form of control is self-control. and i think that is why so many people keep trying to control their children...as a culture we have very little self-control, self-responsibility, self-discipline.
the more we control children, and take responsibility for more of their lives than necessary, the less they learn those things for themselves. and the greater the burdon raising children is on us. i would go mental if i was taking on the responsibility of when and how my kid sleeps and eats. i've got better things to do with my time, and she is a more fulfilled person for being responsible for those things herself.
kids are infinitely more capable at much earlier age than our society gives them credit for.
i just realized i'm talking really theoretically, so i should give a IRL example.
Mira and i have been co-sleeping in a loft bed {6ft high} since she was about 1 1/2yr. she'd fall asleep in the loungeroom in the evening, and i'll go to bed in the loft bed later. she wakes up in the middle of the night, walks down the hallway, climbs up the ladder and snuggles back to sleep with boob. now she has a little bed under the loft {her nest she calls it} and she'll sleep in there sometimes and then come up to the loft in the middle of the night when she wakes. i guess the point is...a 1 1/2 yr old is perfectly capable of climbing a 6ft ladder in the middle of the night, only half awake. i have friends who still wont let their 4yr old climb the same ladder without angsty suppervision.
ang... have you checked out any of the unschooling yahoo groups? that's were i first came across consensual living {on some american groups}...it's kinda tyed in with NVC and radical unschooling...is it cool if i put the web addresses for a couple on here or should i PM you??
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Cyathea
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I've just joined a CL yahoo group Thanks!! I'm reading everything I can about it.
Yep links on here are fine I'm so glad you are on here Alex, I really appreciate your views
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Beatrice
April 10, 2008, 9:59am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I agree with the self-control comments - we have screentime restrictions largely because I need them B agrees with me that we both need a kick up the bum to get out of our ruts and back into the habit of togetherness because that's what's currently broken in our house. Hopefully we'll be able to stop using such a blunt instrument as "screens off at 10am" sooner rather than later and go back to total self-regulation.
Would say more but have run out of time
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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lunabloom
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i really love AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com
it's sandra dodd's group and has awesome practical advice for living this way with a family. it's a really busy list...i just lurk mostly, but the archives are really helpful when needing help with a specific issue.
AlwaysUnschooled@yahoogroups.com is also great.
i find it so helpful reading stuff by people who're at the same stage i'm at and also people who have been radical unschooling or consensual living for 15 yrs. great perspective.
i find this whole way of life so exciting...and it's great that more people are becoming interested in living this way.
i've found it really difficult sociallizing sometimes when the underlying principles of my way of being with mira is so different to how other people deal with their kids. it makes it really tricky problem solving when others advice to me is to put on the authoritarian voice and basically put her in her place. i have lost friendships over it, which is really sad, but my priority is my relationship with my daughter, and being authoritarian doesn't nurture connection with her, or model behaviour that i value.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Mumma2Mia
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Quoted Text
He did self-regulate...he ate what he wanted when he wanted and gave away what he didn't... it just didn't look like what you would choose as ideal self-regulating!
Very true, Lunabloom. Personal conditioning has such a strong influence on how we perceive things!
Quoted Text
i have lost friendships over it, which is really sad, but my priority is my relationship with my daughter, and being authoritarian doesn't nurture connection with her, or model behaviour that i value.
I too have experienced misunderstanding and confrontation with friends. Then my issues with 'control' raise their ugly head, because it frustrates me that they don't see the benefits!!
Kathryn
Mum to Mia, Jude and Rueben
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Mumma2Mia
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I also think a common misconception among outsiders is that the child is not only controlling the parent, but also not allowing the parent to meet their own needs. I know I am seen by some as as mother who has sacrificed so much of my self - which is simply not true!
Kathryn
Mum to Mia, Jude and Rueben
http://www.preferorganic.biz
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Beatrice
April 10, 2008, 3:47pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Unreal Unschooler
Sapling
Posts: 519
I reckon most people here would love Always Unschooled. I hung out there a few years ago til I got busy with babies again and had to prune my email lists. It's really good for addressing the whole-of-life aspects of radical unschooling, like bringing up kids from birth without arbitrary food and screentime limits. Another really lovely and inspirational group is Shine with Unschooling, also at yahoo. I love Anne Ohman
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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Ayla
April 10, 2008, 4:06pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Be the change...
Administrator
Site Admin
Posts: 528
Location: Brisbane
It's a shame they're email lists, I find email groups so limiting
Student homebirth doula and mumma to my homebirthed babe, September '07 2008 - The Year of Homebirth Awareness.
"There is a secret in our culture. It is not that childbirth is painful, but that women are strong." - Laura Stavoe Harm
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greendraggon
April 10, 2008, 4:25pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 312
I been lurking on AU for nearly a year & love it
Ayla, this is probably one thing I like better as an email list. Most of the posts are looooooooooooooooooooooooooong (and very thoughtful) and I find it easier even though I like forums.
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majikfaerie
April 10, 2008, 6:06pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Perniciously blithesome
Tree
Posts: 1,587
Location: Isle of View
I was on AU and several other lists a few years ago, and in the end, I just got irritated by Sandra Dodd's style. she really does have a lot of wonderful things to say, and I do understand where she's coming from, but I find that she (and the crowd she runs with) most definitely do NOT treat other parents with the same gentleness they afford their children. they can be downright horrible to mothers who are just starting out on the unschooling journey.
I see that they were really the pioneers of all this, and had to cop a lot of flack over the years, so they've really built up a very strong defense system. but they can be very damning and insulting to people who aren't in the same place they are.
I do feel that I came to radical unschooling in spite of Sandra Dodd.
that said, the yahoo lists are good resources. I think i'm still a member of about a dozen of them, though I haven't read messages in a long while. and now I've got this place, maybe never again :
It takes a village
http://majikfaerie.blogspot.com
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Sam
April 11, 2008, 2:16pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 303
Quoted from majikfaerie
I was on AU and several other lists a few years ago, and in the end, I just got irritated by Sandra Dodd's style. she really does have a lot of wonderful things to say, and I do understand where she's coming from, but I find that she (and the crowd she runs with) most definitely do NOT treat other parents with the same gentleness they afford their children. they can be downright horrible to mothers who are just starting out on the unschooling journey.
I do agree about the hard core flavour of the Always Unschooled (AU) list that you are talking about but I'd like to speak in defence of Sandra Dodd since she isn't able to do so herself and she is being personally criticized here.
The Always Unschooled list is for those already understanding and already practising Radical Unschooling. They make that very clear in the group outline. There are loads of other unschooling lists where Sandra Dodd and others from AU regularly post and their posts there are respectful of the particular outline of those groups. For some reason people who are new to the concept of RU want to be on the AU list and because they lack understanding of what RU is their posts are often inappropriate. The AU list is also not a forum for debating the merits of RU - it's for those already practising it. Yet many times that is what posters are trying to do - debate about or criticise RU. These are the posters who get the hard core replies. It is also made very clear when you sign up to AU that you are expected to read for a few weeks so that you can understand the flavour of the list and determine if it is the list for you. Despite this requirement newbies jump on in with inappropriate posts before they have read a while. I know listmembers there can be blunt but it must be very annoying for Sandra and others at AU to have to constantly remind people that they are in the wrong place and redirect them to the appropriate lists just because these members rudely didn't bother reading the outline or couldn't respect the group guidelines.
I love AU for the same reason that I love JB - they don't water things down just so people feel more comfortable. There are very few places just for those of us practising RU simply because there are so few of us. I don't know a single other family in real life practising RU. I love that I can go to AU and not have to wade through heaps of other homeschooling ideas or even anti homeschooling ideas. Complaining about Sandra being honest and blunt with people who are being anti-RU on a RU list is a bit like going to JB and then complaining because the advice is too straightforward not gentle enough with people who are trying to promote unnatural births.
Sam
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lunabloom
April 11, 2008, 2:40pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
Posts: 28
Location: brisbane
ITA Sam...it is clearly stated in the info that you receive when you sign up to Always Unschooled and Always Learning, what the list is about and what is expected of members. I love that they delve so deeply into the way their thinking effects what is possible in their lives. It's almost like free therapy if you can put aside defensive reactions and use what is said as a tool to better understand yourself.
It's rare to find honestly given objective insights and they're something i really value.
Sandra Dodd often makes the point that every second parents spend fooling themselves and excusing shitty treatment of their kids is robbing those kids of a better childhood.
"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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majikfaerie
April 11, 2008, 2:43pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Perniciously blithesome
Tree
Posts: 1,587
Location: Isle of View
I agree with you, Sam. but I do notice that attitude from them not just on AU. I've just seen so many genuinely interested people get so hurt and turned away from unschooling there. it would be so much easier to simply say to the newbies "this group is more for the support of experienced unschoolers, perhaps you should try XYZ group" or something similar.
and yes, I've had this exact same discussion with Sandra Dodd.
From what she said, I got the impression that her stance is that anyone who is questioning it or "not getting it", is attacking her, and she needs to attack back.
I'm not saying Dodd is bad, or the group is bad. it just wasn't a good fit for me.
It takes a village
http://majikfaerie.blogspot.com
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Sam
April 11, 2008, 3:26pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 303
I can see why anti RU posts might feel like at attack to Sandra. I myself find it easy to ignore ignorant comments I hear in public or on other lists that aren't mine but I feel more "attacked" when it's comments made at my own home or on my own lists.
You can be totally new to radical unschooling and be on the RU list as long as you are not putting RU down.
When I go to that list I don't want to have to defend RU or listen to people who have never done it put it down or listen to a bunch or ridiculous presumptions about it because that's what I have to do everywhere else and it's exhausting and taints the list. What the RU women would actually like to say to the people who go to that list and then take up list time arguing against RU is probably way more short and unsweet than the blunt posts they make. I think they are probably restraining themselves.
I also don't think they have any interes in getting more people onboard with RU and that's certainly not what that list is for. If going to that list turns people off unschooling so be it. I'd say that if finding one group of women on a list mean spirited was enough to put you off unschooling then you were never really going to be an unschooler anyway. It would take more than people being mean to change my core principles and belief system. Actually people are really mean to me about RU all the time and I have been called names, told I am a bad or negligent parent, been seriously verbally attacked on a regular basis by my mother who then walks out of my house or hangs up on me etc...and that's from friends, family, other homeschoolers and natural parents. Even if everybody in the world thought I was bonkers I still couldn't bring myself to school my kids at home or elsewhere when I don't think that's best for them.
It's funny you should say that people are going there and getting putt of unschooling because I generally find AU a haven but I get put off visiting that list by those very people. Sometimes you get a run of posts from people who don't "get" or like the list complaining and arguing against RU. It really takes the fun out of reading there because it's the same conversation and the same tired arguments from these people over and over again - it's as if their posts are scripted it's so predictable. It's a bit of a bumer because like I said there aren't many places for people who are RUers.
I would like it if more people RUed because then my kids would have more friends like them but I wouldn't want anybody doing it who didn't believe wholeheartedly in it.
Sam
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