Against the grain

[Ayla]

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Mumma2Mia
April 12, 2008, 1:08am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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OK - I'd really like to hear how other families approach the following:-

I personally don't like to purchase plastic 'stuff' that supports a myriad of things such as sweatshop and environmental destruction, to name a but a couple. This is my opinion/view, (macro) and I think it is imperative to the very survival of the planet that we (collectively) minimise such consumption drastically.

However, (micro) I certainly understand that this is important to me, and not necessarily important to others. In saying this, I have informed my 6 y/o of the truth behind those pretty Barbies and My Little Ponies. She has taken such information on board, and has chosen to own such toys.

I see how much joy these toys bring her (micro), but my sense of 'social responsibilty' has been rocked (macro)! How do others handle such conflicts??

I'm very keen to hear what others have to say. I feel like I am sacrificing a certain 'need' within myself by standing back and allowing her to effectively support the destruction of the planet!!

Help!!


Kathryn
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majikfaerie
April 12, 2008, 2:15am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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good topic.
well, in the particular case of barbies and ponies; we get second hand stuff. I feel like op shops and hand-me-downs and ebay are a great way of keeping energy (in the physical plastic form) flowing. reduces the amount of new plastics we consume, keeps things in use longer, satisfies DD's desire for such things, and is very cheap.

that said, I do keep up a long running dialogue with dd about environmental and social issues. she's one well-informed five year old


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Janet
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If I'd chosen to allow that stuff in my home I'd be going the secondhand route too but you know, I don't think we need to provide that stuff. I don't let my kids have violent toys and I won't let them have inappropriate or highly sexualised toys like Barbies (or Bratz) because we all know the effect of normalising that stuff on children. Sometimes, I think, it's ok to be the gate keeper of our own homes and keep those kinds of pernicious influences at bay. My daughter is quite impressed by a Barbie we've seen a few times in the local opshop but she's impressed because the toy has breasts We're not bringing Barbie home regardless My Little Ponies? Well while they're not sexualised they're highly gendered, I note it's not a boy you're describing. Cutsie crap is designed for girls, marketed to girls, made acceptable by other families making choices to underline what they think the gendered identity of their child should be and I choose to reject that for my children. As a child I was denied Barbies because of sweatshop labour and all that. I too understood at a young age why my parents didn't spend money on it. To me, to say "I don't like Barbies because of the exploitation involved in their production" and then to purchase them anyway is a mixed miessage and it's no wonder your daughter then thinks it's ok. My parents said, "The women who make these are not paid enough money for their daughters to have Barbies. You can play with them at other people's houses." That was fine, and congruent, in my kiddy mind. That's what I'd do about the Ponies. "The women who make these aren't paid enough for their children to have MLPs" and then you can go with a discussion around sweatship practices and a pass the bean dip attitude if you want. I think a lot of us are quite blinded by marketing and the idea that we have to buy stuff because buying stuff is what people do. (Not saying this is you, of course, just musing on wider trends as I see them.) We don't actually have to buy anything, we can be very discerning consumers when choosing what we bring into our homes, we're not actually powerless over the nasty marketing aimed at kids at all.


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lunabloom
April 12, 2008, 9:30am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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we do the same as you majikfaerie...op shops are great...and getting second hand plastic crap means they have off-gassed somewhat. {a major reason i don't like plastics is the chemicals being released from them}. opshop stuff also doesn't have all the packaging that new toys do.

buying from op shops also means supporting the charity that runs them, which, while i'm not christian and most of them are run by church groups, still means people in need benefitting from us buying barbies etc, rather than Mattel further profitting.

i figure by keeping a dialogue flowing with mira about environmental concerns {she really gets the "chemicals" issue} while finding ways for her to explore toys and concepts she is drawn to, she will be in a better place to make more conscious decisions sooner than if her desires are thwarted now just cause "i say so".

i've found having her own money makes a big difference to her too {i've been giving her weekly pocket money for about a year, she's just turned four}...she can buy things she wants without having to run it by me, but she still asks me about the things she wants to buy, whether they are good value or have lots of chemicals, etc. and she is coming to realize the value of things for herself and that something in a toyshop is soooo much more expensive than the same thing from an opshop or garage sale. when it was my money, that just wasn't relevent to her.


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lunabloom
April 12, 2008, 10:16am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Janet
I don't let my kids have violent toys and I won't let them have inappropriate or highly sexualised toys like Barbies (or Bratz) because we all know the effect of normalising that stuff on children.



janet, i'm not sure what you mean by "the effect of normalising that stuff" but i think in a home in which a positive self image is modelled, and in which there is open and honest discussion, toys have no power over children.
my daughter is free to play with whatever she likes...she has some my little pony type critters, some barbies, a baby doll, cars and trayns and trucks, various animals. for her, they aren't loaded with the negative meanings that adults put on things. they are just people and creatures and vehicles...props that she uses for exploring concepts and interactions from everyday life, no gender stereotypes, no sinister intents.
lately her dolls and animals have been having women's circles! they take turns around the circle introducing themselves and talking about what's going on in their lives. then they dance and sing

while i think children who are left to the mercy of commercial culture, disconnected from their parents, and not engaged in honest dialogue, are highly effected by this combination of elements, it is not the toys that are doing this. it is a message that is being relentlessly reinforced in every sphere of their life that has a negative effect.




"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Janet
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I don't know that toys which encourage violence like violent video games or guns, for example, can be mitigated by the rest of our homes. It seems oddly incongruent to me to provide toys which enable violence or encourage a warped view of women and yet also tell children these things are inappropriate. Why not just be congruent and choose to avoid potentially damaging toys? Or if you're not bothered by violent toys, you wouldn't feel the need to mitigate a potential effect, right? I think there's a very wide spectrum from families with great disconnect where these things are unaddressed and/or celebrated and those who choose to not have truck with them at all, the latter best describing my family, for instance. I find a disturbing lack of critique in many AP families however which buys into essentialist myths around biology and applies them to gender thus normalising the idea that little girls have girly toys and clothes and perceived girl behaviours while little boys are perceived as inherently active, violent and stereotypically "boy-like". This lack of critique often sways into the kinds of toys which we provide for our children and basically undermines any of the dialogue in which we might participate around these issues. Thus it also is when we talk the talk around sweatshop labour and environmental damage and yet choose to participate in furthering both by purchasing new toys from the people who are exploiting labour and the environment. What message are we sending our chidren? So long as you pay lipservice to those issues it doesn't matter how you act on them?


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lunabloom
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Quoted from Janet
What message are we sending our chidren? So long as you pay lipservice to those issues it doesn't matter how you act on them?



what message does it send to children that their parents can choose for themselves to do things that are environmentally damaging but they are forcibly restricted from making that same choice?
parents can choose to own and drive a car, use electricity and computers, purchase unsustainably farmed produce, for eg. Unless you're living a *competely* environmentally sound lifestyle...which, realistically, few are, what is being modelled is the freedom to justify unsustainable/environmentally damaging choices when it suits the individual. a freedom and choice that is then being denied the children.



"Children are people we should spend a lot of time listening to, as they see the world through eyes untainted by our baggage" J.A.Wood
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Janet
April 12, 2008, 11:26am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Depends how far you want to extend it, I guess, and I don't see the things which adults purchase as solely mine, (the food I buy isn't "mine" nor is the home we purchased, it belongs to us as a family) I see them as belonging to my family and I make many choices every day for my family based on a philosophy which seems logical to me. We try to buy organic, we avoid consumerism for the sake of it, I work as a volunteer, we choose to support groups and organisations which also work on human rights issues and environmental issues. So no, I'm not denying my children the right to sweatshop toys and then living it up myself on sweatshop goods. To the best of my ability, I don't purchase consumerables for myself which damage the environment or are created by exploited people. Children are, as you put it, "forcibly restricted" from many things, they can't buy alcohol, drive cars or work in the paid work force, and I like that those sanctions are applied in this country because it's about providing a safer environment for children, unlike children who live in country without child labour laws, for instance. How appropriate is it to tell my own children they can live lives without regard to others' circumstances? And I don't drive Somehow I can't buy the notion that making choices in my family which support the human rights of exploited peoples is somehow oppressing my own well fed, free living children. It would be a poor kind of freedom that relied on me making options open to my children which exploited the children of people in other countries to whom those options are not open. It's not like poor people can just choose to not be exploited but I can choose to reduce my culpability in their exploitation by speaking out against it and refusing to engage in furthering it.


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Mumma2Mia
April 12, 2008, 11:27am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Interesting repiles -

I must say that we too purchase probably 99.9% of all our 'stuff' from op shops and we do not consume merely to consume. I pride myself on just how little landfill we produce! Anything that Mia purchases new is done so with money she has been given for birthdays/Xmas gifts. It is her money and I will not impose on her how it is to be spent.

I was, in the recent past, adamant that we only buy such things 2nd hand for all of the above reasons; reasons that I live by and actively model. I would tell Mia that I simply would not buy these things for her because they are not made with 'love.' I explained to her the difference between sweatshop manufactured goods and homemade goods (which I personally have lavished her with over the years!). Including the ill effects of plastics, excess packaging, etc. With all this information, she made an informed choice to purchase plastic stuff with her money.

OK, so my little girl is not a 'perfect' reflection of myself as far as humanitarian and environmental issues are concerned. By all means, I'd be over the moon too if she chose not to purchase such rubbish on her own accord! Again, her money, her choice - I certainly live by MY convictions and do not buy these for her; she knows this.

I'm not being very clear about what I need 'help' with - even I cannot articulate! This is very typical of me; I do apologise . . . I suppose I'm not looking for 'answers' as such, but a very vague venting of sorts ---

Appreciate your input.


Kathryn
Mum to Mia, Jude and Rueben
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Janet
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I don't think there are necessarily easy or glib answers to these issues. I think there are questions which we must raise and ask ourselves.


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Mumma2Mia
April 12, 2008, 11:46am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I just realised!!

Suppose the lesson here for me is that we can hope our children model our behaviour till our heart's content. However, perhaps WHAT we are modeling is deeper than what we can 'see'. For example, Mia may not actively share my passions (although this can change!) but acceptance of peoples' differences of opinion and choice is the subtle, underlying 'lesson' that need not be verbalised.

I feel pretty happy with that!


Kathryn
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Sam
April 12, 2008, 11:56am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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My girls spend their own money on whatever they like and it has sometimes been barbies, bratz and other ones we don't know the names of but since they are never taken to shopping malls and the like they buy them at op shops. They also find them on the council clean up and are given them by older girls in the street who have grown out of them. They don't play with them like the girls on the advertisement (I've only see then one telly ad that I can recall and that was mermiad barbie). Right now large barbie head that I thini is meant to be used to do hair styles (hand me down from a cousin) has her eyes plastered with toothpaste and she is lying face down under the bbq outside. Most of them in the end have hacked off hair and texta or paint on their faces (radical make overs) and they also like to put them in crazy positions and take photos of them. Eventually when their legs and arms have fallen off and their heads no longer go back on I throw them away because it freaks me out all these little limbs over the house and by then the kids are no longer finding a use for them. They certainly don't treasure them or play cutsie games with them. I never thought I'd spend my money on a barbie but I did one year because it was asked for (the mermaid barbie from the ad) and it was at a time when my daughter was pretending to be mermaid herself almost every day and she wore this outfit I made her and every bath was called a mermaid bath etc.

I just dyed my hair with nasty chemicals and I didn't even bother to check where it was manufactured. In this situation I was purely interested in the colour and the fact that it was affordable and dh could pick it up from the supermarket with the bread and milk this morning. I don't always make the most responsible choices myself and sometimes I just ignore all of that and suit my own purposes like not having grey hair for another minute. I don't demand more perfection from my kids than I do from myself.

Plus it's easy when kids are little to control what they are exposed to. It's not so easy as they get older and have their own money and travel about the place with other people and get taken to places you normally wouldn't go. When they are earning their own money and going out of the home without adults it's even harder. My son had his own business when he was 8yo and he did buy things with that money that I wouldn't have bought for him. I think it's better to allow them to develop critical skills of their own that will serve them when we aren't around as much and it's hard for them to develop that when we are making all their choices for them.

I'm not sure I understand how my girls having babies is sending them messages about how to behave?

Sam
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Mumma2Mia
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I too fall 'off the wagon' with certain things that are my 'ideal.' This used to really bother me, but I too now see the realness of it - who I am is who I am, and my children see this in me.


Kathryn
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Sam
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Quoted from Sam


I'm not sure I understand how my girls having babies is sending them messages about how to behave?




I mean I get it, I know people believe it, but I have yet to be convinced. Perhaps if you made them play with barbie in a certain way you'd be influencing them.

Sam
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lunabloom
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[quote=45]
However, perhaps WHAT we are modeling is deeper than what we can 'see'. For example, Mia may not actively share my passions (although this can change!) but acceptance of peoples' differences of opinion and choice is the subtle, underlying 'lesson' that need not be verbalised.
quote]

so well put mumma2mia...that's really beautiful.

you are trusting your daughter and respecting her autonomy and opening up the space for her to make a truly informed choice for herself.



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Janet
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It's the fact of the Barbie with her outrageous ultra-feminine but pointless body which I see as more damaging than necessarily the play but like violent toys, these things come on a continuum and can be more or less challenged or supported with our other actions. I also think it does really depend on the age and thus independence of the child. Would I stop a child purchasing stuff with their own money? Nope. Do I refrain from purchasing things which go against my own conscience from the wider family budget? Yes, mostly. I actually do think children develop critical thinking skills without me spending the family budget on stuff like that. How would they not? I'm afraid when it's coming from the family budget I just can't justify buying stuff which exploits in order to further a false sense of freedom in my own children. It's not freedom when it involves the purchaser in exploitation, it's just plain old exploitation and capitalism and making my children pawns in the continuation of it doesn't help them or those being exploited. Life is about more than my rights, it's about how we live as a community and I don't privilege my children's right to toys over that of other children to live lives safely. So we don't, for instance, purchase slave derived chocolate because I'm not giving my kids a treat which has involved the unlawful and immoral enslavement of another child.


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Beatrice
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I think that's one of the big reasons for giving my kids an allowance - it's also giving them the opportunity to make their own choices and develop their own framework of ethics. In general, I don't buy nutritionally-vacant food with my grocery money but if B wants to she can with her allowance. I don't buy new, non-ethically traded toys except on staggeringly rare occasions (I don't think K has ever been into Toys'R'Us and B was 8 before she went in there the first time, altho I do buy some ELC stuff), but both kids happily buy op shop stuff, and don't mind that I prefer to buy wooden toys than plastic crap if possible. Etc. B went through a stage where she did save up for new toys and bought a Barbie and a Roboraptor before she discovered that the amount of enjoyment she got out of buying something new was mostly in the satisfaction of having saved up for it, and now she saves for more important things (to her) like a plane ticket to visit family, and if she wants toys (which she mostly doesn't) buys them second hand.

I, naturally, would like my kids to share my ethical beliefs, but I can't force them to do so. B recently made the decision, after watching a documentary on Chinese factory conditions, to refuse to buy MIC stuff on her own accord, and has told the rest of the family that she won't accept MIC (my mother bought her a pair of MIC PJs and B insisted she take them back to the shop, so I think she's gotten the message now). But one of the big reasons I stopped being vegan and then vegetarian was the fact that B is a natural carnivore and has texture issues with a lot of vegetarian foods. I can share my reasons for preferring not to support factory farming with her, but if her reasons for eating meat outweigh her commitment to the ethical side of things then I'm not going to force her to eat only vego food. Instead we try to buy only organic pasture-fed beef and only eat it maybe twice a week, raise our own chooks for eggs, etc; so my take on things is also respected as far as is compatible with hers. B's tastes are slowly changing as she matures and I won't be at all surprised if she ends up vego in her teens


Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)



"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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majikfaerie
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Janet; 18 months ago, I would have written the same post as you. almost word-for-word.
but over the last year or so, I started to see things differently. I guess about 6 months ago I can to a new place; I wrote an article about it for work, which sums up how I feel pretty well:
http://www.eolife.org/article.php?aid=eca40edb2d6d660998530aa7d5d4dc41

basically, I believe that if a child is loved and supported, has a good model of behaviour, and above all, is well informed, then they aren't going to get a negative self-image from barbies, or become desensitised to violence from toy guns.
we talk a LOT about plastics, and sweatshops, and economics. and based on that, we choose to get only second hand stuff. we do a lot of toy swapping and sharing with friends.

at the end of the day, it works for our family, and DD has a bunch of barbies, which she doesn't much play with any more - 6 months later. all those barbies have had 'radical makeovers' - DD painted bindis on their foreheads, gave them haircuts and tattoos, even facial tatoos, some have dreadlocks even! Out of a dozen barbies, she has given each it's own personality - there's a cross-dressing one, who is the prince, a lesbian couple, a princess, a midwife who's sister barbie has a little barbie tipi... She makes up role playing games with them, does all these different voices. and more often than not, the game revolves around enacting things that have happened in our lives. they get out the tea set and make a food cirlce, they have unassisted births, etc.

For me, it's about trusting my child and respecting her interests.


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Lotus
April 12, 2008, 5:42pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Quoted Text
For me, it's about trusting my child and respecting her interests.



Ditto. I banned Bratz from our home, lost the battle again and again after relatives gave my children more, banned them again, lost the battle again...,my girls love these dolls! Like majikfaerie said:

Quoted Text
we talk a LOT about plastics, and sweatshops, and economics



Also, I realised that by me taking away toys that my girls love to much was actually shaming them. That was not my intention of course, but that was what was happening.

I am happy with the way my girls play with their dolls. Of course, ideally I would like for them to play with a toy that I did not fear would fuck with their heads. But at the end of the day, they love these darn dolls so I just have to back off and trust them.




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majikfaerie
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Quoted from Lotus

Of course, ideally I would like for them to play with a toy that I did not fear would fuck with their heads.


I think there's a big gap between our fear that something will fuck up our kids, and the reality of them being fucked up (or not)


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pomegranate
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great thread

I don't buy my daughter any of that plastic branded stuff - not even from op-shops. And the reason is because she is usually gifted that kind of stuff from friends and relos Once they are gifted I don't take them away That would be disrespectful imo - towards her. I don't restrict what she plays with. DH and I use the opportunities to talk about the important stuff. I'm not into disallowing or banning stuff. And this extends to many other things - eg. we have a multitude of traditional fairytales - you know, the kind with stereotypical characters and damsels in distress etc.

I think kids need exposure to these sub-cultures. It's part of our/their cultural inheritance. Being familiar with these things means they are better able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together tomorrow and make sense of the world around them. At their pace. With some guidance.
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greendraggon
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Seedling
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Pomegranate. Well said.
Interesting thread btw
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greendraggon
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Seedling
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I just finished reading MF's article. I must say I love this:

Quoted Text
What the child learns from this is that their interests aren't valid, that she is only 'good' when she shows interest in the 'right' things, and she must constantly look to her parents to know which choices are the correct ones. This undermines her confidence and self-esteem far more than any Barbie doll ever could.



Something I'll need to keep in mind in the future
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Semiprecious
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Quoted from pomegranate

I think kids need exposure to these sub-cultures. It's part of our/their cultural inheritance. Being familiar with these things means they are better able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together tomorrow and make sense of the world around them. At their pace. With some guidance.



I totally agree, pomegranate. Even though it's hard to accept. I love the Buddhist tenet that says something like our children are not our own and we are only there as guardians to guide them in the right direction. It helps me accept that they live within their own world, not mine. I can influence that world to an extent but in the end they are alone, with me behind them, and I can only give them tools and guidance and help them make sense of it. Ultimately, the universe is theirs, not mine and they are of the universe, not me. Although I have a hard time getting this on a day-to-day basis.


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Semiprecious
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Sprout
Posts: 235
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Great quote from MF


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'Hi Daddy!' S, seventeen months old

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bella
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Sprout
Posts: 176

I totally agree with the concept of letting them be. We have Barbies even though I initially felt what Janet described. And they came and they came - in all their glory - sports cars and credit cards and skanky outfits. Then the Bratz arrived - boys and girls. And Action Man. And more. I've never bought them, but they're here. They're often ignored. I've culled it down to one box as we've moved or as one child has lost interest in them (before the next one took them up). Now it's just a box of dolls and clothes - all the accessories have been op shopped.

I used to have issues with food. We were vegan for awhile, and vego and so on - diet has changed a lot over the years. One day I realised that making a big deal out of foods was going to do more harm and cause feelings of deprivation. So now we eat what we eat, I only buy what I approve of. When we're eating our or at parties or sharing a meal with friends, our kids can eat what they wish. I only warn them not to go overboard or it might upset their tummies. Once Brit ate a heap of ham and salami etc and felt ill, otherwise everyone else has successfully self-regulated.

One thing I have a problem with is chocolate. I try to only buy slave-free (fair trade, organic, blah, blah) chocolate. It's a pretty big issue for me. When people bring Freddo Frogs for the kids or they buy something with their money when we're out I feel like I can't give them the whole cocoa industry yada yada. We talk about it at other times, just as we speak about factory-farmed meat and dairy and all the rest of the food ethics issues.

I also let them spend their birthday money etc on items of their choice. Occasionally I will ask if they think it's the best choice, and gently state my case. They know about my made-in-china stance. They help me choose stock for my business and watch me research how and where it's made, what from etc etc. But sometimes they do still want to go to a department store and buy something plastic off the shelf. Not often, and not over an extended period of time - it's usually out of their systems fairly soon... And the toy is in the bottom of the toybox and goes to the op shop during a clean-up and they realise they probably should choose something else next birthday, something more long-lasting and useful for them. Doesn't mean I don't feel guilty about our family buying MIC plastic. Same as when the grandparents buy that crap. It rests heavily on my shoulders. I should do more to stop them consuming such items on behalf of my children! It's so hard. We've ebbed and flowed with our success there, but since we moved away the ILs are just back to what they know - plastic crap like SIL's kids play with (or not). Even after years of me guiding them to preferred choices of natural, wooden, educational, games, art, craft, sport equipment. Well, my preference is no gifts but that's never going to happen!

Once the children get to 10 or so they seem to have observed enough of my purchasing choices to realise what I'm doing and why. They respect that and begin to emulate it. I'm really proud. Those first 10 years or so, though, I feel bad about the footprint, the effect on factory workers overseas, everything. And we're not really consuming much compared to most families - even with six kids! But I feel quietly guilty all the same...


~ Bel ~
- mama to six -



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Sam
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Quoted from Janet
It's the fact of the Barbie with her outrageous ultra-feminine but pointless body which I see as more damaging than necessarily the play



What if you have a figure more like Barbie than most of the real life women you see around you? For most of my adult life I've been a dress size 6 with a 24 inch waist narrow hips and DD cup breasts. Okay so I'm not exaclty like Barbie, my undies are not fused on, but perhaps I am like her short sister. One daughter of mine appears to be taking after me physically. If Babrie's bad for girls because realistically they are never going to have a body like her...that does that make her a good physical role model for girls who will look like her?

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Quoted from majikfaerie
Janet; 18 months ago, I would have written the same post as you. almost word-for-word.
but over the last year or so, I started to see things differently. I guess about 6 months ago I can to a new place; I wrote an article about it for work, which sums up how I feel pretty well:
http://www.eolife.org/article.php?aid=eca40edb2d6d660998530aa7d5d4dc41

basically, I believe that if a child is loved and supported, has a good model of behaviour, and above all, is well informed, then they aren't going to get a negative self-image from barbies, or become desensitised to violence from toy guns..



I thought that was a well written article majikfaerie. Like you, I started out thinking I would raise my kids in a toy gun-free, Barbie-free household. I think I was copying ideas that I got from my mother and hadn't really thought about it very deeply or talked with parents of older kids.

I once had a trial of banning guns in our home when my son was around 4 (when he started wanting to play with them more). I got together with the other mothers in the street. At the time there were a lot of little boys living in the same street around the same age. We agreed that we didn't want to encourage violence in this already too violent world so we decided to ban guns. Not all of them but just the realistic looking ones leaving only the water pistols or bright coloured ones. Gradually, when they weren't looking, we threw out all the guns. We hadn't bought them many, or any that I was aware of in our case, but these boys all seemed to have heaps anyway. The Dads said it wasn't necessary. They had played with toy guns and played goodies and baddies when they were boys and they were not violent men but the opposite. The boys went under cover. I had made a pact with all the other mothers in the street but the boys had made a counter pact with each other. They would stash all the guns then play with them secretly. It was decided that this stock pile should be kept at one boys house taking turns at being keeper of the gun stash. What I surprise I got when I found this huge pile of grenades, hand guns, rifles etc. under my boys bed (and that was after we thought we had thrown the lot out)!. Somehow wanting to keep my child free from violent influences I had encouraged him to lie and sneak about and it not having the guns didn't stop him wanting to play that way.

That experience reminded me that a year or so earlier I had banned him from touching matches. One day we couldn't find any and he piped up and said that he knew where some were. He went to his room and came out with a box of matches. I asked to see where he had got them from to find he had a massive pile of match boxes under his bed. He must have been collecting them for some time - there were 25 boxes or so. So dangerous and it freaked dh and I out.

It just seemed backwards to spend a lot of time trying to force a child to stop doing something if it wouldn't stop them wanting to do it and only encouraged them to find ways around my rules that involved secrecy. So we allowed out son not only to handle matches but he was freely allowed with us supervising to light as many as he pleased whenever he pleased. We also made him chief bbq helper and in charge of lighting and tending the fire. This seemed to satisfy his need towork with fire and our need for him to do so safely.

We (the mums from the street and I) also agreed to allow the kids to go back to playing with guns. They did it regularly from around 4yo until they were 8yo. I still couldn't leave them to it though. I had all kinds of rules about not going out into the street with them, not bringing them when we left the hous, not to pretend to shoot anybody who was not in the game etc. On the last day I recall my son playing with guns he was 8.5yo and I had noticed that it was a game that didn't hold much interest any longer. So I was surprised when he and his friend dressed up as Rambo - not very tough looking Rambos I might add since they used my brightly coloured sleeveless parkas as bullet proof vests and my belts etc. to complete their outfits. Anyway, they proceeded to yell out "hands up" to any passers by and I wanted to tell them not to do that except that I watched for a while and each and every person who passed by seemed to be enjoying the game - they were all smiling, every second person pretended to get shot.

I think I let go a lot over those experiences.

Sam
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majikfaerie
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Tree
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thanks for sharing that , Sam
it's the experience of so many, yet it seems most still stick to the "no guns/ barbies/ etc" standpoint, even when butting up against their kid's desires.

my mother banned guns in our home, but it never stopped my brother and I from 'violent' games. at the end of the day, an well-angled thumb and forefinger makes a pretty good gun, and no sane mother is going to confiscate that one
restricting things from children unilaterally too often sends them on a path of sneakery and lies.


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Ayla
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I haven't made my mind up on the issue, but someone pointed out that yes, fingers or sticks can be used for gun play but they can also become a wand, or something else. But a toy gun can only be used as a gun, there is no other use for it other than to pretend to kill each other with it. Just throwing that out there.


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Seedling
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No, guns can be drills, hair dryers, magic makers and all sorts of things. J does this all the time when he is at his cousins house. He has just started making guns out of lego and stuff. Hr thinks its funny but is really just trying to get a reaction out of me (pushing buttons lately), just like he loves to tell me he is picking his nose and eating it because he knows I think its gross..


mama to a 4yr old boy



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mrs.zoomby
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Seed
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**So I decided to jump in at the deep end Here's my two cents worth

My son wouldn't pick up and play with a gun if his life depended on it. But that is his personality, he has an ingrained empathy for others. My girl though is entirely different, she loves play acting and sees gun play as just another fantasy thing like pretending to be superheroes or fairies. I think it is more important to set the example than to confiscate the toy. My daughter may like to play with them but she automatically puts the game into the 'fantasy' category, which to me is the important thing. She has decided on this category all by herself because she has seen us not use guns, or be either pro or anti towards them. They are just this mythical impliment that she has heard about.

Is that making any sense? It is in my head, but the words are jumbling as I type.


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Sam
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Quoted from Janet
I find a disturbing lack of critique in many AP families however which buys into essentialist myths around biology and applies them to gender thus normalising the idea that little girls have girly toys and clothes and perceived girl behaviours while little boys are perceived as inherently active, violent and stereotypically "boy-like". This lack of critique often sways into the kinds of toys which we provide for our children and basically undermines any of the dialogue in which we might participate around these issues.



Perhaps parents should stop trying to provide toys for their kids and allow them to choose whatever tools they want/need to play with. Babies certainly don't need toys and are happy to utilize anything around them as play tools. Older kids can decide for themselves and if they wat specific things can shop for them themselves. In that way the parents aren't controlling their play so much.

Sam



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majikfaerie
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Tree
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I've gotta say; we never bought ANY toys for dd. she did get a few as gifts, but we were backpacking in south america when she was born, and until she was about 18mo, so there wasn't much chance for that, and almost no exposure to media. yet she still became instantly obsessed with anything pink and sparkly and princessy.

What to do?!

As far as I can see, there's been no external influence on her to be "girly" yet she is. the girlyest girly girl on the block.
Oh the shame to my tom-boy self
I think some kids are just like that, and it's no good me trying to influence her into something more gender neutral, or masculine.

actually, a couple of months ago she got really interested in meat, and where it comes from, and after some discussion, she announced that she wants to hunt a brush turkey (of which are a pest and we have plenty on our property). She begged me to buy her a spear!
My mind instantly whirred along the lines of "great! finally! something non-girly! she wants a spear!" and I agreed that we could make one. then she says "and it has to be a pink spear. with SPARKLES!"


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Gullygirl
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Seedling
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I can't wait to meet her MF. J would love a pink sparkly spear of his own!


mama to a 4yr old boy



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Tree
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it just brings up images of "huntress barbie"
if there isn't such a thing, there should be


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Sprout
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L never quite got the gun concept and always thought kids were holding a drill and did the sounds of tools perfectly till the age of 4...then he got the gun thing and now has numerous guns and a whole box of army figures...the more I tried to sway him away from these things the more he seemed to desire them so I let go of my fears and often hear his army games with friends where they decide to talk about things and become friends and other times where they blow each other to bits...I figure they are just working it all out for themselves. I don't worry too much because in reading stories about families loosing dads and mums and sons to the war I have also seen a tear in his eye and talked about the realities of war! A male neighbour once told me that he never had TV as a kid, and lived in the country and they still played games with guns...I think it was then I just decided to stop banning it all because I didn't like it.
I also have a little girl who is so into pink and pretty and girlie despite the fact that I have always been a bit of a tomboy and never really liked anything girlie...a t-shirt and jeans thanks...my little 4yr old wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of jeans and wants her hair done....ahhh....I have always had short hair and have no idea how to do hair things...lol
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Ilithyia
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Perfection Is Never The Point
Sprout
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I have always been a bit disturbed by my own obsession with toy swords. It's a little creepy how excited I get by toy swords. I'm oft found swashbuckling in toystores.

My parents never let us have toy guns or swords, and while I agree with their philosophy of promoting nonviolence I felt it unfair and I turned hairdryers into guns and fairy wands into swords etc.

And for some reason typing this has reminded me of charlie's angels the movie and how the director deliberately made the angels weapon their own bodies, no guns , coz all their power came from within themselves, which I thought was pretty cool. That movie came out when I was seventeen and my friends and I were big into doing charlie's angel's pose for photos LOL. (disclaimer: I'm not claiming CA are feminist icons by any means! Just rambling about weapons).


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Janet
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I actually said I wouldn't stop a child purchasing with their own money and if someone gave them something, naturally that too stays with them. I'm just not convinced that there's an inherent virture in spending the family budget on things kids don't actually need and which further cycles of exploitation and expose children to stuff which is unhealthy. (Plastic fumes, anyone?) I can't justify my child's privileged ability to have toys when purchasing those toys causes other families to continue living in exploited circumstances. Gifts are different, purchasing their own gear is different, but what we spend money on as a family isn't going to be earth damaging, exploitative crap. I keep my children safe from lots of things, whether it's traffic or objectification, and I see that as my responsibility to them. I also perceive that I have wider responsibilities to a global community to not support companies which only exist because of their exploitation of poor people. Kids who are old enough to talk about how or why I hold these views are obviously going to be able to make their own choices. At 4 and just under 2, neither of them have asked about it. It's ok to communicate around this stuff and it's ok for me to have boundaries with it. That does, after all, also model for my children their right to boundaries. I'm actually a little shocked that so many of us think it's ok to engage with sweatshop labour. What happened to fairtrade and ethics? Does being a parent mean I have to put ethics aside so my children can have open slather in the shops? I step in and do my best to see that my children don't hurt other kids in the playground, develop healthy respect and empathy both for themselves and others and yet sweated labour and exploited children don't matter? Just because they're not right there in my face doesn't mean I'm not thinking of them. I'm also reminded of Kali Wendorf when she said that saying no to our children can sometimes be a most valuable lesson. I'm not a permissive parent, I'm not child focussed, I work with our family as a community with age appropriate needs to a sliding scale which changes as the children choose greater independence.

So in answer to the OP, nup you're not going "against the grain" at all. It seems you're slap bang in the middle of popular opinion


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Sam
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Seedling
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Same here. A very boyish boy and girl girls. I was a tomboy and only ever agreed to wear one dress growing up and my mother despaired but I grew into a girly girl and I'm still going through my pink phase (maybe because blue was always my fav colour as a child). I have one sporty girl and one less so but they both totally adore glitter to the point that it's a problem cleaning it up. It's all over the house, in the washer, through all our clothes, stuck in dh's stuble which gets noticed by the other blokes at work. They also love make up and clothes and hair and fairies....it's their passions...what can you do?

Quoted from Ilithyia
I have always been a bit disturbed by my own obsession with toy swords. It's a little creepy how excited I get by toy swords. I'm oft found swashbuckling in toystores.

.



Can I join you? I love a good swashbuckle. Actually, I am about to purchase a real sword. I'm just a little bit excited. While it is coming from a pretty full on weapons shop it's not for fighting and will be blunted. I'll be wielding it around and balancing it on my head and other parts of my body while dancing. The plan of course is not for anybody to get hurt - we are using practice swords while we work on not taking each other out and my girls won't be playing with it because it's worth too much money and it's heavy and can really hurt you if it falls. My teenage boy has always window shopped on e-bay for swords (he's got a bit of an Asian martial arts theme going on with his decore in his flat). He is going to be so envious for sure.

Sam

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Miss Molly
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Sprout
Posts: 136
Location: Brisbane


Quoted from Ilithyia
My parents never let us have toy guns or swords, and while I agree with their philosophy of promoting nonviolence I felt it unfair and I turned hairdryers into guns and fairy wands into swords etc.



Ilithyia your experience is similar to mine, the only toy weapon I had as a child was a water pistol yet here I am teaching martial arts and performance weaponary

It's been brought up already but just to state my view, I think the emphasis should be always the safety (the children not actually hurting each other) and the emphasis (that it's a fantasy game, you don't go around killing people in real life).
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greendraggon
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Seedling
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Ilithyia, I love toy swords too & I almost had a fit a few years ago when I discovered there is an Australian company that makes utterly beautiful display swords. I'll join you & Sam in a good swashbuckle one day
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majikfaerie
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Tree
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janet, I don't think anyone here was advocating the purchasing of new off-gassing sweatshop toys.
I'm not going to re-read the thread, but I was under the impression that the folk here were saying they look for second-hand / op-shopped stuff.
the exceptions were if children chose to buy something with their own money, but I'm assuming that people here are, like me, well-informing their kids about where it all comes from and what it means.
There's plenty of adults out there who know full well where cheap MIC stuff comes from, but they choose to buy it anyway. it might not be a choice we agree with, but it's an informed choice, and their right to make.

I think the issues of buying *new* plastic MIC toys, and the issue of allowing "violent" toys are very different issues.
toy guns and swords can be made ethically of organic fair-trade sustainably-forested wood.


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Semiprecious
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The teeth are moving in...
Sprout
Posts: 235
Location: Central Coast, NSW

Um...might be showing my complete and utter ignorance here, but are all MIC toys made in sweatshops? Why are we focusing on stuff made in China (or are we using it as an example?)? As far as I knew, whole towns in China are focused around the making of a certain thing, and the people who work there are wealthy by Chinese standards. Just because it's made in China, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is made by a child in a sweatshop. ?? Please educate me


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'Hi Daddy!' S, seventeen months old

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majikfaerie
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Tree
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I don't thing MIC = child labur sweatshop automatically. we are generalising a bit, but not too much. I think the reality in china is often very different from the picture we get, and I do think working conditions are far below anything we would deem appropriate for human 'consumption'.
but to be honest, any plastic toy that you can buy here for $5 or $10, even after you know the store did at least 100% mark-up, and the shipping, and the middlemen, and the factory owners and all that blah blah that it must have really cost to make that thing, and get it to our department store shelves... the factory workers can't be getting paid too well, or having anything remotely like good conditions/ sick pay, health benefits, holidays, decent working ours, even minimum wage.
and don't get me started on the toxic plastics and lead paint that's been coming out of china lately.

it's pretty easy to point the finger at china, because the whopping vast majority of toys (and all plastics) are MIC.
doesn't mean everything MIC is evil, and it doesn't mean all the bad stuff comes from there, or it's the only place supporting sweatshop labour.


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greendraggon
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Seedling
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http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/rpwv/RPWV-other.pdf
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Quoted from greendraggon
http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/rpwv/RPWV-other.pdf





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Sam
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Seedling
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That was funny.

I don't know who wrote this but I like it:

"We risk confusing [our children] about their natural aggression in the same way the Victorians confused their children about their sexuality. When we try to protect our children from their own feelings and fantasies, we shelter them not against violence but against power and selfhood."

Sam
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majikfaerie
April 19, 2008, 8:47pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Tree
Posts: 1,587
Location: Isle of View

that's a GREAT quote, sam


It takes a village
http://majikfaerie.blogspot.com
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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artymama
April 22, 2008, 12:29am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Seedling
Posts: 408
Location: A tiny house on a busy street

Lot's of food for thought. Thanks for all the contributors to this thread.


Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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Janet
April 22, 2008, 10:27am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Administrator
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I think it's easy to conflate some of these issues too and above all I love a good meaty theoretical discussion. I think there are ethical dilemnas in this stuff we have to think out in order to live congruent lives.


Homegrowing, homebirthing, homelearning.
Ain't it so logical?!
Joyous Birth, the Australian homebirth network
http://www.joyousbirth.info/
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Sam
April 22, 2008, 12:51pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 303


Quoted from Sam


"We risk confusing [our children] about their natural aggression in the same way the Victorians confused their children about their sexuality. When we try to protect our children from their own feelings and fantasies, we shelter them not against violence but against power and selfhood."



I like it because the feeling I get when my kids are playing violent games is that they are experimenting not with the feeling of hurting others but of being powerful. Same as when they choose to watch sad or scary things on tv even though they hide their eyes or cry. Dh can't understand them wanting to feel that way but they are enjoying experimenting with these feelings over artificial situations - kind of like sounding the emotions out and practising them. They don't want to be scared or sad for real but they are enjoying playing with these emotions in a controlled environment.

Sam
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mumma
April 23, 2008, 12:22am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 101

I learn so much from this forum...thanks semiprecious for the questions you asked because I was about to post the same till I read them. Thanks to MF for your answers too, I have realised sometimes I just don't think enough or explain enough to my kids! Can we go to the $2 shop mum.....hmmm I now have new thoughts on that..........previously it was oh, its only a couple of dollars. Hmmm wake up mumma.
Thanks
learning all the time!
Julie
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quasior
July 6, 2008, 7:12pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

Sprout
Posts: 53

Hi, bit late on but...

Firstly, we allow our children to buy what they like. We encourage certain directions and we do say no to some things but mostly because it is just like throwing our money away, you know show bag quality. My eldest buys Bratz but hates barbies or anything else. She likes the concept of dolls but she doesn't really play with them anyway. We brought her a baby bratz as she hassled us for so long about it we finally gave in. Kai loves anything armies. Army figures, combat vehicles, guns the whole shebang. Well, honestly I loathe the stuff, but my husband insists its a passion. Secretly I hope he'll grow out of it. He even knows that "War is Hell" but I don't know he's aware of what that really means, but he plays army games and watches real army movies (within reason - I don't really want him to see gore). While he buys the army stuff, we have opted for more real things like a bow and arrow. I really like the idea that he can learn a practical skill like that and I wouldn't mind really if it turned into hunting animals on a controlled, fully understanding of whats going on basis. Other than that though...
Dante loves fish, so we have real fish tanks and fishing gear. We try and make what we buy real as much as possible, yet he still likes to get out an old fishtank and draw pictures of fish, cut them out and hang them inside, get plants and rocks etc and add them into it. No trouble there. He is also dinosaur mad. We get him to buy scliech as we know thats good quality and attempting the real stuff.

As for the above children and little Monika we are unsure of because she's only 8 months, they are very inclined to be girly or tough boys. Well, Raven is completely different. He loves LOVES Dora the Explorer, and Diego too! He seems attracted to the singing (he's very musical - and yes he has real drums, a keyboard and shakers both home made and brought). Ironically, he wants to wear all Dora clothes and have a dora doll etc. On the other hand he loves Thomas the Tank and dinosaurs and fish! All the boys like dinosaurs. We will buy him this type of thing, and Dora. So, in a sense he's a bit not boxed into the genderised box at all. I'm proud of that. We allowed all of them to play with sexist toys from the start, he's the only one who in fact really truly sees no distinction.

What do I prefer and tend to buy? Wooden, musical, educational, books, science based, make our own musical instruments where we can and toys, art materials. Unless they are determined in a particular area we try and build on these areas as much as possible.
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majikfaerie
July 8, 2008, 1:55pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator

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Tree
Posts: 1,587
Location: Isle of View

funny, we were browsing in the duty free to kill time in the airport, and there was a toy section. DD was really *really* into the bratz, and said how they're so beautiful. I replied "but they're so unrealistic, women don't really look like that" and she goes "duh mum, they're not like women because they're not real people, they're Bratz!"


It takes a village
http://majikfaerie.blogspot.com
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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