Ayla
21-11-2008, 06:57 PM
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gumtree
July 30, 2008, 2:05pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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Hi, just wondered if that article on 60 minutes ages ago about EC, no limits parenting etc. was about RU? I didn't see it so it had left questions in my head about what the parents were doing (about no limits not EC) and now I have connected it to RU. Am I right?
And so is RU not limiting your kids at all in most areas of life.
So if you don't do RU totally in all areas does it just turn out you are being lame in some areas, rather than sensitive in all areas?
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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Sam
July 30, 2008, 2:31pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Quoted from gumtree
Hi, just wondered if that article on 60 minutes ages ago about EC, no limits parenting etc. was about RU?
I didn't see it so it had left questions in my head about what the parents were doing (about no limits not EC) and now I have connected it to RU. Am I right?
Do you mean the one that Janet from JB was interview in? If it was that one I seem to remember that the theme was AP but the families were quite different. They interviewed Janet, an English unschooling family where the mum was tandem breastfeeding and an American woman who was into EC? The homeschooling family in England may have been Radical Unschoolers although they didn't actually say so. Janet spoke about AP and the other woman about EC and unnecessary baby products.
Quoted from gumtree
And so is RU not limiting your kids at all in most areas of life.
I'd say that's a correct if brief explanation.
Quoted from gumtree
So if you don't do RU totally in all areas does it just turn out you are being lame in some areas, rather than sensitive in all areas?
LOL. That's a funny question and it would depend? I'm sure some people consider RU parenting as lame - when RU parents don't restrict in areas that they would I'm sure they see us as slack as. It all depends on your personal philosophy. I suppose my thoughts are that if you don't totally RU it tells me that you don't have the trust/faith that your kids will be okay without you controlling certain areas OR perhaps you feel they are capable most of the time and don't restrict them most of the time but understanding that there will be times they make poor choices you are the sort of parent that can't stand to see that happen and so you feel the need to control those area (those areas commonly being junk food and tv/computer/video game time but also clothing, how money is spent, chores, friendships etc.). I see some people on the verge of RU. These are usually unschoolers that see how well freedom works when it comes to learning but they are fearful of extending that freedom to all areas so in that situation I would see them as fearful. If a parent was totally convinced that RU was best but still didn't do it then I suppose I would see that as lame...and just plain confusing.
Sam
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
July 30, 2008, 3:33pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
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I know we've covered this elsewhere but I would just like to clarify that there isn't necessarily a fear around trusting a child to make the best choices for themselves when not appearing not to be 'perfectly' RU (a term I don't like in itself, as discussed in other threads, because of its negative connotations ~ I'd rather describe positively what we do than what we aren't doing etc).
There are just differing boundaries drawn as to opinions on mind altering substances.
I think we would possibly be in agreement that it would be reasonable not to trust anyone to be safe or capable after taking, for example, ICE...?
I see, for example, sugar and the physical effects TV has on the brain, as sufficiently altering a healthy brain so as to impair anyone's optimum judgment and capability.
This does not reflect how deeply or not I trust or honour my children, and in this case it is not a control issue.
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Sam
July 30, 2008, 4:36pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I should clarify that I wasn't saying that people who aren't fully RU are necessarily fearful or controlling but rather that I would perceive them to be those things or some other things rather than see them as simply insensitive or lame parents. What I meant was that there would be a good reason why they were more controlling than I feel I need to be. They perceive dangers where I don't and vica versa e.g. I see not allowing a child to self regulate as creating problems in itself whereas nearly all parents I meet aren't concerned about that.
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
I know we've covered this elsewhere but I would just like to clarify that there isn't necessarily a fear around trusting a child to make the best choices for themselves when not appearing not to be 'perfectly' RU (a term I don't like in itself, as discussed in other threads, because of its negative connotations ~ I'd rather describe positively what we do than what we aren't doing etc).
There are just differing boundaries drawn as to opinions on mind altering substances.
I think we would possibly be in agreement that it would be reasonable not to trust anyone to be safe or capable after taking, for example, ICE...?
I see, for example, sugar and the physical effects TV has on the brain, as sufficiently altering a healthy brain so as to impair anyone's optimum judgement and capability.
This does not reflect how deeply or not I trust or honour my children, and in this case it is not a control issue.
I didn't understand all you've written here properly.
Lots of people use ICE but have relatively normal lives. Not everybody who tries ICE or uses it for a long time or gets chronically addicted or has impaired judgement. You might say that if they are using drugs at all their judgement is somewhat impaired...or you could just think they were a person living in this society and drugs are part of that society - plenty of people use drugs or have used drugs and the impact of that drug use varies so much it's hard to lump everybody together. So I didn't get that particular analogy.
You are only referring here to tv and sugar. That happens often with RU discussions because these are common "biggies". I find it helps to clarity RU principles if we also look at other areas because of course RU is not specifically about tv or food but about our whole lives. E.g. There might be a situation where a family were unschoolers and not concerned in the least about food or tv restrictions but control the social contact their kids have or heavy regulate the clothing their kids are allowed to wear. Surely the reasons for parents being like that are the same - fear that the children won't choose friends or clothes that they would approve of and the parents therefore wanting to control those choices.
Question: Why if you trust your children to make their own choices would you feel the need to regulate them or make choices on their behalf? What reason, besides fear of what choices they will make on their own are there for acting that way?
Sam
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
July 30, 2008, 5:36pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
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Yes, I am only talking about food and TV use here, and I was using the ICE example very narrowly, I know, but I guess I coming from trying to say about drawing the line in a different place: presumably you wouldn't have it in your home as an option for your children to try if they wished? The same maybe with regards to various other prescription and recreational drugs? Maybe the same as fire arms. I don't know your beliefs or boundaries, so I'm guessing, using examples, not assuming.
In this, and many other aspects of life, we all make some make choices on behalf of our child/ren.
Some would be lead by common sense, some by geography, some by finances or availability of resources, some maybe by fear...
If you would not chose to have an array of mind/body altering (yes, taking into account that everyone reacts differently) substances available in your home, thus making choices on behalf of your children, you will have an understanding of what I mean: we are simply defining mind/body altering substances differently and drawing a line in a slightly different place, but a line nonetheless.
When pushed before on other threads surrounding this topic, the general conclusion from those identifying as RU appeared to be that there were no limits - within reason. So, the 'reason' would differ between families.....?
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gumtree
July 30, 2008, 9:51pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Yes TABSP I read the thread about identifying what we do at home.
Sam I know my original post was judgemental. that is how I am seeing it at the moment I suppose, I feel like people think I am lame in some areas of parenting and I am questioning whether this is because I'm being sensitive to the kids, or lame!
As for the 60 minutes show, maybe that was it, i dunno, is supose there havent been that many on 'radical' parenting.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:14pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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I'm lame.. my teen says see ya.. off to hang out with a guy.. see you later.. and I nod smile and say.. be safe.. love you..bye. (she does this at 9pm)
It may seem "lame" to parents who like to control and monitor every action their teenager makes.. and deep down I wish I could also, I wish she could just choose to do whatever I want her to, but that's not parenting really, it's more of owning someone, which I don't.
Not sure why it's "radical" to allow freedom in children.. it's normal in some parts of the world.. it's only westerners who see it as radical.
As far as making choices for our children, when they are young and don't realize things like, it's not safe to play on the HWY in peak hour traffic etc if we didn't make the choice to step in and redirect, our children would all be killed by the age of 3 LOL
It's not making choices for them, it's redirection. When they are old enough to understand the dangers then it's up to them to decide if they are going to take risks. They need to be told of them, that's our duty to them as parents, but we have to step back and allow them to decide for themselves.
Most of the time they choose wisely. Its' the children who have been held back and had choices made for them their whole lives, who become rebellious and choose to do the unhealthy risky stuff.
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arunaway
July 30, 2008, 10:20pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
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Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
I was using the ICE example very narrowly, I know, but I guess I coming from trying to say about drawing the line in a different place: presumably you wouldn't have it in your home as an option for your children to try if they wished? The same maybe with regards to various other prescription and recreational drugs? Maybe the same as fire arms. I don't know your beliefs or boundaries, so I'm guessing, using examples, not assuming.
if my children as they got older said they wanted to try ICE or some other 'hard' drug, my first reaction (hopefully) would not be "no".
It would be trying to understand the need behind it... experimentation? exploration? peer acceptance? fun? letting go of control? etc etc..
i would discuss ask about ICE and encourage them to research it as well as try to encourage an awareness of their needs behind it to see if there were other options possible.
I might strongly recommend against its use and explain why.
If they still wanted to use it I would definitely want them to do it in my home! And i would let them know i accept and love them just the same so they could still talk to me about it and get my support around it... particularly if it developed into an addiction or had some other major impacts. Home is the best place for that to take place IMO.
i dont expect to hit this challenge for a while, if at all, given the young ages of my kids, but for me the trust approach still applies on the biggies.
(general disclaimer – i appreciate that this is a personal thing and am not suggesting you try this at home if its not your thing)
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:27pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Jessica tried ecstasy a couple of months ago at a party.
She got scared and phoned me to come and get her. She could have hidden it from me like most kids do, out of fear of being "punished" or upsetting me, or worrying me etc
but she knows that the most important thing is that she feels safe.. she feels safest at home
I did look after her to make sure she was ok, then the next day I told her it may be safer to try that sort of crap at home, because next time I may not be able to get to her in time and she can't expect her friends to call the ambos and be honest with them about what she's taken.
She agreed and is yet to try anything else.
She's not too keen on drugs, all her friends raved about it so she was curious and tried it. She was bummed that it wasn't all they made it out to be and was even more bummed at the anxiety attack it caused. She's happy having a natural high and has the freedom to do that, so has no desire for drugs.. thank goddess LOL
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artymama
July 30, 2008, 10:29pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Quoted Text
Its' the children who have been held back and had choices made for them their whole lives, who become rebellious and choose to do the unhealthy risky stuff.
this is a VERY generalised statement. I was entrenched in drug culture during my teens and my best friend had complete 'freedom' and chose to be do lots of stuff that would be considered risky and unhealthy. I know people whose 'freedom' given to them by their folks actually meant they felt uncared for. I don't think it's ever so black and white as 'give them freedom and they'll regulate themselves and make wise decisions' and 'put in boundaries and they'll rebel against you and not be able to regulate themselves'. Our western lives are so much more complex than that.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:33pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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There is a fine line between freedom to make choices and parents who don't show any concern over their choices.
I always told her when I was worried and still do.
She wasn't allowed to go out at all hours of the night till she was 16 and thought I was the strictest mother in the universe LOL
As I said it's all about ages and stages.. I wouldn't let Aiden play on a HWY and I wouldn't let a 13 year old go and party and and get herself around town without knowing where she is..unlike alot of her friends parents who were too busy smoking bongs and having dinner parties to give a crap where their kids were.
I always know where she is and I always call her if it's getting late and I am worried.
I trust her and she trusts me.
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:39pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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I will also add that when she was 14 she had 2 friends come over to stay the night and they got bored at around 8pm and decided to leave and catch a train.
I wouldn't let them leave the house until I spoke to their parents and when I did neither of the parents seem to give a crap. I told them I wouldn't let them leave unless they were picked up.
They were pissed off but did it.. I interrupted something more important me thinks.
There is huge difference between freedom and not caring.
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arunaway
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Sprout
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Quoted Text
I know people whose 'freedom' given to them by their folks actually meant they felt uncared for
i think raises a useful distinction.
Radical Unschooling is big on finding a "yes" rather than applying limits/ boundaries and enforcing a "no" etc..
but there are different varieties of "yes" which RU ones get mistaken for.
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
my line about RU is that its the most hands on way to be hands off.
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:58pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Quoted from arunaway
i think raises a useful distinction.
Radical Unschooling is big on finding a "yes" rather than applying limits/ boundaries and enforcing a "no" etc..
but there are different varieties of "yes" which RU ones get mistaken for.
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
my line about RU is that its the most hands on way to be hands off.
arun
Yep yeppity yeppers LOL
I learned the hard way. I stopped Jessica from going out, so she snuck out and put herself at risk. I found out she had been sneeking out of the window at 3am to go driving with a 23 year old who was giving her pot. She had lied to him and said she was 19 and he believed her. (she was 14 at the time)
Now she has the freedom, I know where she is and she isn't afraid of telling me. If she gets into a bit of trouble or feels unsafe, she contacts me without fear of my reaction. She's making wiser choices because I am allowing her to actually CHOOSE
She knows I will drop what I am doing and go to her and she asks more questions about life than you can imagine, because she wants to know the risks before getting in danger.
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Marijo
July 30, 2008, 11:18pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
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Very inspired by your words, Arun. I fully agree with what you say. I hope I can take it to practice when the time comes...
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arunaway
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Sprout
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Quoted from Marijo
I hope I can take it to practice when the time comes...
so do i!
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
July 31, 2008, 8:07am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
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QUOTE:" Not sure why it's "radical" to allow freedom in children.. it's normal in some parts of the world.. it's only westerners who see it as radical."
Whilst it's probably true that, in most places in the world, children run after their mothers and that it's only Western mothers who are seen running after their children, I would still say that the freedom still has boundaries, and is also much easier to achieve within the context of some kind of tribe or at least strong community life, where similar goals, based on survival, are shared, and there's lots of people looking out for the children and young people.
Many tribal people have hugely sophisticated and integral sets of rules and regulations, many applying to different ages and stages of growing up. It's more that the children and young people respect their tribe/community so deeply that it simply wouldn't occur to them to blatantly break those rules.
They are definitely not 'allowed freedom' and some would have less than our children certainly - by early teens - because their workload (even if they see 'work' in different ways to us, and some don't even have a word for 'work') is so high.
QUOTE:"if my children as they got older said they wanted to try ICE or some other 'hard' drug, my first reaction (hopefully) would not be "no"."
On the understanding that the ICE example isn't the best, Arun, you still state "as they got older"....therefore, you are, as a parent, putting some kind of (age) limit on it...
QUOTE:"we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive."
I know this, but I like how concisely it's been put here
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Beatrice
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Sapling
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Interesting read, Arun My current plan for dealing with this issue is "But my daughter will never do drugs!" Possibly I should work on adding a little more nuance to that, though... Actually, my Cunning Plan for ParentingTM focusses on building relationships above all else, a strategy which I am hoping will pay off in the teenage years, especially since I am most definitely in the category of "Do as I say don't do as I did" when it comes to just about everything stupid one can do as a teenager
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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arunaway
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Sprout
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Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
On the understanding that the ICE example isn't the best, Arun, you still state "as they got older"....therefore, you are, as a parent, putting some kind of (age) limit on it...
i wrote 'as they get older' mainly because i did not seriously expect a 2 year old or 6 year old to ask for hard drugs with any level of commitment.
if they did... i think a whole bunch of broader questions would surface.
i think the principle still stands, the age appropriate language still varies.
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
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I have to say I'm still glad drugs, particularly alcohol, legal or otherwise, have not been an issue to date, even though being at a particularly funky, artistic college and moving in punk circles and events has given my 17-year-old DS ample opportunity.
Beatrice, I think the general line I've heard amongst older 'AP' families and home ed parents is that it's not so much that your children won't do drugs ~ it's just that they'll tell you about it !!!
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Beatrice
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Unreal Unschooler
Sapling
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Ah, the mixed blessing Considering how much crap I did to myself and how much effort I invested in hiding it from my parents, I reckon I'll take openness as a positive though The idea of my daughter putting herself in some of the situations I ended up in is hair raising (and heart breaking).
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
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Yep, but your daughter isn't you XXX
And you didn't have you as a mumma XXX
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gumtree
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Seed
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Hmmm Sitting back taking it all in.
Thanks for giving me lots to think about.
I saw an interview with a guy who was a homeless cocaine addict, living under a railway station platfom in america, who ended upbeing some really recognised writer. He said the problem with drug education is that parents don't say that the drugs might and probably will make you feel great when you start taking them. Hiding this part of the experience and focusing on the hangovers, addictions, side effects of drug taking just makes the teen think that their parents have been lying to them when they have a positive experience on drugs.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
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gumtree that's absurd it's obvious they make people feel good otherwise they wouldn't bother taking them. If someone goes to take drugs not realizing that they make you feel good, then that person has issews
Jess found the opposite, she expected it to feel great but it wasn't how she imagined. I don't make a huge deal out of the drug thing anyway, she's seen enough nuff nuff pot head druggies in her life to know what they do to your life. The ones she has seen live in caravans in peoples backyards, don't have jobs and spend their entire lives searching for drugs and taking them. Those people turned her off.. I'm glad i exsposed her to those people, they saved her going and learning the hard way.
Oh and her father (my X) is a prime example of drug fucked smack addict... she finds it disgusting and won't go down that path.
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gumtree
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Seed
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Yeh I suppose it does seem really stupid now you say that.
Although in my experience, taking drugs can be a choice not because it is a positive experience, but because it is an act of rebellion and self destruction, from the beginning.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
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Seedling
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Quoted from gumtree
Although in my experience, taking drugs can be a choice not because it is a positive experience, but because it is an act of rebellion and self destruction, from the beginning.
Yep like I said in a previous post, people who are controlled and never given the freedom to make choices, rebel later in life.
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artymama
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Seedling
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Quoted Text
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
I know. I think you are assuming that the parents I speak of weren't doing that......it's pretty presumptuous..... 'because it didn't work out for them they musn't have been coming from 'this' place....'
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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artymama
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Quoted Text
Yep like I said in a previous post, people who are controlled and never given the freedom to make choices, rebel later in life.
I'm not a believer in control at all, but you're making really generalised statements here Kali that are not really true. Other friends I knew....(I played in lots of different circles during my teen years!).....had seemingly very controlled upbringings yet there some of the happiest people I know who never rebelled. I definitely don't think that control and punishment are any kind of answer but I also don't think that 'freedom = no rebellion' and 'control = rebellion' in every single instance. It can go either way with both.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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Beatrice
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I think it depends a lot on personality type (and gender). My upbringing and DH's were fairly similar yet I responded in the classic way Kali suggests, and DH just hung out with his friends, got into computers, never took drugs or touched alcohol or cigarettes, and started out in relationships which weren't always wonderful but certainly weren't all dysfunctional and a form of self-abuse. My mother and his both do the classic martyr thing as a way to control through guilt, but he can shrug it off and go Eh, whereas it ties me in knots.
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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valleymama
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mmmm....drug taking is not something that i would really like my kids doing while they are still growing, due to the possible side effects on the brain, nervous system etc. However, I do believe there is such a thing as responsible recreational drug use (without dependance or addiction, which is of course unhealthy and detrimental). Just as there are many risky recreational activites in life, it is a personal choice if one chooses to particpate. I would like to think if my (adult) children were considering taking a drug for this purpose, that they would be able to do so in a fully informed way. Thus i plan to keep on open line of communication about the subject, so that when it arises in the future, my kids won't feel they have to hide it from me as i did from my parents
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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valleymama
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Sprout
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ps I am not talking about the hard, super-addictive drugs
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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kali
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Quoted from valleymama
However, I do believe there is such a thing as responsible recreational drug use (without dependance or addiction, which is of course unhealthy and detrimental). Just as there are many risky recreational activites in life, it is a personal choice if one chooses to particpate. I would like to think if my (adult) children were considering taking a drug for this purpose, that they would be able to do so in a fully informed way. Thus i plan to keep on open line of communication about the subject, so that when it arises in the future, my kids won't feel they have to hide it from me as i did from my parents
I agree
What urks me is that parents seem fine with letting their kids drink alcohol which is just as.. or even more risky than some soft drugs.
They are fine with them drinking at the same time as they become licenced drivers then wonder why driving is such a risky activity.
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Sam
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Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
If you would not chose to have an array of mind/body altering (yes, taking into account that everyone reacts differently) substances available in your home, thus making choices on behalf of your children, you will have an understanding of what I mean: we are simply defining mind/body altering substances differently and drawing a line in a slightly different place, but a line nonetheless.
We do have dangerous substances in the house...toxic drugs and deadly chemicals. The kids and adults alike choose not to ingest them unsafely).
None of us here have ever wanted real guns in the house but my son did want to try shooting so we arranged for him to go on holidays to a friend who lives in the country where he got to play with guns.
The drug issue isn't hypothetical in this house. I agree with Arun that ideally I'd love to have any drug use under my roof, however, with young children in the home this isn't ideal. In reality my son isn't doing drugs on his own but with friends so for me to have him use drugs here would mean him bringing the entire party here and TBO I'd rather not. I am happy that my son hangs out with friends he can trust. I am happy that he is good at keeping himself safe despite not always being in the safest environment. It would be naive of me to believe I know where he is and who he is with and what he is doing at all times. I get told a lot but I don't know all that goes on and what I do know I often find out after the fact.
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
When pushed before on other threads surrounding this topic, the general conclusion from those identifying as RU appeared to be that there were no limits - within reason. So, the 'reason' would differ between families.....?
The limits seem to be fairly consistent amongst RU families....basically respecting the rights of others. That's vague I know but it's just the usual stuff you would expect - not being violent, not stealing or damaging other people's property etc.
Sam
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mer
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Mind if I jump in this discussion?
I was reading along and formulating responses in my head, but Arun beat me to it with everything I wanted to say!
About the drugs - I don't think what gumtree said is so absurd - yes we all know drugs make you feel good, but if a parent ignores that fact in discussions with kids, I feel the kids will think the parents are just clueless, and their advice becomes irrelevant to the kids. If I had thought my parents knew anything about the "good" side of drugs I might have heeded their advice, but I thought they were just coming from their usual authoritarian place, that they just didn't understand the value of the high so had no idea about how to weigh up the pros and cons.
I hope it never comes down to it but I would do similarly to Arun with my kids (at any age ). However I would love to see figures on the percentage of unschooled kids who use drugs compared to schooled kids.
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mer
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And on "limits' yeah our limits are that others are not hurt nor possessions destroyed. Others' feelings and convenience comes into it too. If someone wants a biscuit and there are none in the house I am not about to drive to the shops and get one unless I am feeling that is OK for me at that moment.
I think a lot of people think RU is a free-for-all for the kids at any expense, but we do talk endlessly about the results of this or that, why it might not be a good idea to do something. However it is just information-sharing followed by "well it's up to you", (in a nice way, not spoken with cat's bum).
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Gullygirl
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I don't think it sounds stupid at all gumtree, and I think it is a really good point.
mama to a 4yr old boy
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kali
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I didn't say gumtree was stupid she posted about something she heard someone else say anyway.. and I still think it's absurd
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artemis of the eucalypts
August 1, 2008, 8:54pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I've been thinking of this topic alot. We dont consider ourselves as RU'ers. We have boundaries around t.v and addictive non-foods. I have been thinking of all the people I know who have grown up. I'd say none of us come from RU backgrounds, and all of us come from pretty conventional families in that there was no AP in the early years. However in quite a few families there was unconditional love and respect and trust. Perhaps not the kind of trust that RU'ers are talking about as there were rules around alot of things, however the children growing up were felt respected and loved by their parents.
The examples I can give most clearly were Aby and I. I grew up with physical and verbal punsihments. We had rules around telly in as much as we had to be in bed by 830 on a school night, and were never allowed to watch anything greater than a pg rating. We were forced to eat food we didnt like, forced to clean our plates, had fairly free range on lollies and junk....
Aby never had any phyiscal punishment, but was yelled at, they had similar rules arround the telly, but more relaxed than our house I think. Food wasnt forced or restricted in their home, but there wasnt loads to go round, so it was 1st in best dressed, and they ate similar junk to me growing up......
The difference was that Aby felt she had huge ammounts of love and respect from her parents. I never felt that. Neither Aby nor her siblings have rebelled. Both my brother and I did, and I believe my brother at age 31 is still rebelling
From a point of control, I feel both our famililies were pretty similar. We both had freedom to a certain extent around clothing, style, friendships etc, however I have a background of being abused, Aby doesnt. I also have a background of having alcoholic stepfathers....Aby doesnt. My issues around control stem from these incidents in my childhood, she has no such issues.
So I guess my long winded point is that perhaps it is not how much freedom a child has, but how much love and respect and trust they feel they have within the boundaries of their life?????
R a i n b o w mumma to 2 natural learners dd '03 and ds '07
"...unfree education results in life that cannot be lived fully...... only the head is educated. If the emotions are permitted to be really free, the intelect will look after itself" A. S Neill
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kali
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Quoted from artemis of the eucalypts
So I guess my long winded point is that perhaps it is not how much freedom a child has, but how much love and respect and trust they feel they have within the boundaries of their life?????
yes AOTE you are right and I love the way you put it. Beautiful!!!
. If you repsect someone you don't force expectations on them. There has to be boundries put in place for saftey reasons when children are too young to understand, and there needs to be rules of the house to keep the house peacefull.. but once a person is old enough to understand the consequences of their actions, they have the right to make their own choices and we sholdn't stand in their way. The more trust your put in a person the more they trust you and most importantly, themselves.
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Sam
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I kind of see it from another perspective. I feel that it's not so much that I am allowing a child freedom but that I don't unnecessarily interfere with their lives. I tend to step in only if it becomes necessary. So, for example, I haven't taught my kids to walk, I haven't taught my two "always unschooled" kids to read, I see they know when they need to sleep and eat and what they need to wear etc. However, if my child indicated they needed help or if it became apparent that they did need assistance then I would step in at that point. So if my child had physical difficulties and needed help to walk I would do that but only if it was necessary not as par for the course. Likewise, I don't regulate bedtimes or tv viewing or try to make my kids learn to write and I don't do a whole lot of things that I might, that many parents do, but I would if I saw that my input was needed.
Sam
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Aeron
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Sprout
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What a great discussion. I am having a bit of a hard time feeling comfortable with some choices lately. I am not a terribly confident person anyway, so I question my decisions constantly!
Sorry if this does not seem the right place for my questions, it just seemed like a good place while it was being discussed anyway.
One of my issues is tv. I have tried for I guess a month to not restrict my 3 year old's tv viewing. Actually, I suppose I never have restricted tv, it's just that in the last month or two the number of hours have been increasing rapidly, to where the tv might be on all day sometimes. I wonder if it is a winter thing.
What do others do about the *type* of tv your kids watch? We have borrowed some things from the library that I consider extremely dodgey. I try to explain to dd that I do not like the way they speak to each other, I don't believe they are being respectful of other people. I really can't think of other ways of explaining it. She just says 'Maybe not Mum!', one of her favourite phrases .
The movie I am thinking specifically of is a 'My Little Ponies' one. I thought it would be all fluff, cute and lovely. There are witches who are horrible to each other. A mother witch who shouts at her kids, kicks them down stairs, and then they all try to wipe out the whole of the pony kingdom!
And then if she is watching tv in the afternoons, there are the kids shows that are made for older kids. I don't want to tell her they are for older kids, but I don't know what else to say. They deal with kids being nasty to each other, violence, teenagers wearing makeup, etc. and this is all on the ABC. I sound like such a prude!
Apologies if this is a blab and not really appropriate for this forum. I am having a really horrible day so my judgement might be a bit off! And I might be a bit ranty! But bugger it, I'm going to post anyway .
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
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Aeron, have you seen this thread yet?
If not, check it out
http://www.joyouslearning.info/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1213328533/
'Just A Mother': Birth & Earth Activist, Lactivist & Mother/Baby Intactivist - & We'Moon Life Learning Alongside 8 Children & DP & You
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arunaway
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Sprout
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we dont actually have a tv. We have several portable dvd players, one of which belongs to dd (6yrs) and she often uses in her bedroom. We have lots of dvds and go to the dvds shop and "cheap arse tuesdays" so see a range of stuff.
Actually i am keen to get a tv because dd asked for one a few months ago and because id like to play some games with her using it, however my dp is extremely anti tv... dd has not asked for it since so the subject has gone into the background but id expect it to come up again.
In terms of what they watch – dd chooses her own dvds but is very sensitive to what she calls "scarey" which is a very broad definition. I got her walt disney's brother bear the other day and she was upset with me! So she usually selects stuff with a "G" rating. She tends to avoid older type programs.
Ds (2yrs) gets bored by the screen unless its Dora. He went through a bob stage, then postman pat but right now when he does watch wants to see Dora.
i know what you mean aeron, about concern over the characters or relationships portrayed in some shows. I even found this in books id read, especially "old classics".
I now try to limit my commentary now by either asking a (real) question about what dd thinks about it or explain how it makes me feel. I found such discussions easier as she got older. Also trying to have confidence in her ability to look at such things in the context of the loving, respectful relationship we provided.
If they are watching something im not so sure about i try to:
- watch with them
- ask them how they are going (try to encourage self awareness about such stuff)
- on occasion invite them to do something else with me
i personally also feel that if the screen is on a lot for a week or so, particularly if they are looking bored and "droopy", then its probably a sign for me that i need to make the environment or options more interesting. I dont worry so much if its just a few days or during cold, wet periods and they are looking engaged by what they are watching... but it can be a good kick up the butt to consider, as dd often says, "what can we do that is totally new?"
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
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Aeron
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Sprout
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Hi TABSP, No I had not seen that. Now I have a lot of reading to do .
Arun, Thanks for that. You're definitely right about it being a time when I need to get other stuff organised. I can't seem to find anything to drag her interest away. But I will keep trying, in between moments when she is insisting I watch the Wiggles for the 3rd time in a row!
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arunaway
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Sprout
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ds has not watched much recently at all, but at one stage when i felt he was 'a bit stuck' several weeks ago i simply pulled out a bunch of puzzles and started playing with them next to him.
Other times when he really is enjoying watching it can be wonderful to simply join in and get into his space. I find with me there he becomes much more animated and interactive, wanting to point out things or comment more.
i guess it will vary from child to child though...
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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Chrissy
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Lately DD 6 and I have been connecting watching the program 'so you think you can dance'. She is very into dance and runs around the house shouting "I made it to Vegas!!!" in the ad breaks (which we mute down or take the opportuntiy to talk about marketing etc). I have really relaxed about stuff like that over the last few years and it is so lovely to let the world in without too much fear around it. (I know, your cringing )
Our kids toatlly regulate their own screen time and watch max an hour or a whole movie daily and sometimes only that much per week. Neither would prefer TV to doing something fun. JJ can only watch for around 20 mins before he goes out to bounce on the trampoline.
As we share a TV/DVD and only have one computer it means often negotiation with other family members.
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kali
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My 2 and a half year old loves so you think you can dance. He dances while it's on so I always miss it because I'm too busy watching him
He's a singer too, quite the wee entertainer :
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gumtree
July 30, 2008, 2:05pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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Hi, just wondered if that article on 60 minutes ages ago about EC, no limits parenting etc. was about RU? I didn't see it so it had left questions in my head about what the parents were doing (about no limits not EC) and now I have connected it to RU. Am I right?
And so is RU not limiting your kids at all in most areas of life.
So if you don't do RU totally in all areas does it just turn out you are being lame in some areas, rather than sensitive in all areas?
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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Sam
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Quoted from gumtree
Hi, just wondered if that article on 60 minutes ages ago about EC, no limits parenting etc. was about RU?
I didn't see it so it had left questions in my head about what the parents were doing (about no limits not EC) and now I have connected it to RU. Am I right?
Do you mean the one that Janet from JB was interview in? If it was that one I seem to remember that the theme was AP but the families were quite different. They interviewed Janet, an English unschooling family where the mum was tandem breastfeeding and an American woman who was into EC? The homeschooling family in England may have been Radical Unschoolers although they didn't actually say so. Janet spoke about AP and the other woman about EC and unnecessary baby products.
Quoted from gumtree
And so is RU not limiting your kids at all in most areas of life.
I'd say that's a correct if brief explanation.
Quoted from gumtree
So if you don't do RU totally in all areas does it just turn out you are being lame in some areas, rather than sensitive in all areas?
LOL. That's a funny question and it would depend? I'm sure some people consider RU parenting as lame - when RU parents don't restrict in areas that they would I'm sure they see us as slack as. It all depends on your personal philosophy. I suppose my thoughts are that if you don't totally RU it tells me that you don't have the trust/faith that your kids will be okay without you controlling certain areas OR perhaps you feel they are capable most of the time and don't restrict them most of the time but understanding that there will be times they make poor choices you are the sort of parent that can't stand to see that happen and so you feel the need to control those area (those areas commonly being junk food and tv/computer/video game time but also clothing, how money is spent, chores, friendships etc.). I see some people on the verge of RU. These are usually unschoolers that see how well freedom works when it comes to learning but they are fearful of extending that freedom to all areas so in that situation I would see them as fearful. If a parent was totally convinced that RU was best but still didn't do it then I suppose I would see that as lame...and just plain confusing.
Sam
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
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I know we've covered this elsewhere but I would just like to clarify that there isn't necessarily a fear around trusting a child to make the best choices for themselves when not appearing not to be 'perfectly' RU (a term I don't like in itself, as discussed in other threads, because of its negative connotations ~ I'd rather describe positively what we do than what we aren't doing etc).
There are just differing boundaries drawn as to opinions on mind altering substances.
I think we would possibly be in agreement that it would be reasonable not to trust anyone to be safe or capable after taking, for example, ICE...?
I see, for example, sugar and the physical effects TV has on the brain, as sufficiently altering a healthy brain so as to impair anyone's optimum judgment and capability.
This does not reflect how deeply or not I trust or honour my children, and in this case it is not a control issue.
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Sam
July 30, 2008, 4:36pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
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I should clarify that I wasn't saying that people who aren't fully RU are necessarily fearful or controlling but rather that I would perceive them to be those things or some other things rather than see them as simply insensitive or lame parents. What I meant was that there would be a good reason why they were more controlling than I feel I need to be. They perceive dangers where I don't and vica versa e.g. I see not allowing a child to self regulate as creating problems in itself whereas nearly all parents I meet aren't concerned about that.
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
I know we've covered this elsewhere but I would just like to clarify that there isn't necessarily a fear around trusting a child to make the best choices for themselves when not appearing not to be 'perfectly' RU (a term I don't like in itself, as discussed in other threads, because of its negative connotations ~ I'd rather describe positively what we do than what we aren't doing etc).
There are just differing boundaries drawn as to opinions on mind altering substances.
I think we would possibly be in agreement that it would be reasonable not to trust anyone to be safe or capable after taking, for example, ICE...?
I see, for example, sugar and the physical effects TV has on the brain, as sufficiently altering a healthy brain so as to impair anyone's optimum judgement and capability.
This does not reflect how deeply or not I trust or honour my children, and in this case it is not a control issue.
I didn't understand all you've written here properly.
Lots of people use ICE but have relatively normal lives. Not everybody who tries ICE or uses it for a long time or gets chronically addicted or has impaired judgement. You might say that if they are using drugs at all their judgement is somewhat impaired...or you could just think they were a person living in this society and drugs are part of that society - plenty of people use drugs or have used drugs and the impact of that drug use varies so much it's hard to lump everybody together. So I didn't get that particular analogy.
You are only referring here to tv and sugar. That happens often with RU discussions because these are common "biggies". I find it helps to clarity RU principles if we also look at other areas because of course RU is not specifically about tv or food but about our whole lives. E.g. There might be a situation where a family were unschoolers and not concerned in the least about food or tv restrictions but control the social contact their kids have or heavy regulate the clothing their kids are allowed to wear. Surely the reasons for parents being like that are the same - fear that the children won't choose friends or clothes that they would approve of and the parents therefore wanting to control those choices.
Question: Why if you trust your children to make their own choices would you feel the need to regulate them or make choices on their behalf? What reason, besides fear of what choices they will make on their own are there for acting that way?
Sam
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
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Yes, I am only talking about food and TV use here, and I was using the ICE example very narrowly, I know, but I guess I coming from trying to say about drawing the line in a different place: presumably you wouldn't have it in your home as an option for your children to try if they wished? The same maybe with regards to various other prescription and recreational drugs? Maybe the same as fire arms. I don't know your beliefs or boundaries, so I'm guessing, using examples, not assuming.
In this, and many other aspects of life, we all make some make choices on behalf of our child/ren.
Some would be lead by common sense, some by geography, some by finances or availability of resources, some maybe by fear...
If you would not chose to have an array of mind/body altering (yes, taking into account that everyone reacts differently) substances available in your home, thus making choices on behalf of your children, you will have an understanding of what I mean: we are simply defining mind/body altering substances differently and drawing a line in a slightly different place, but a line nonetheless.
When pushed before on other threads surrounding this topic, the general conclusion from those identifying as RU appeared to be that there were no limits - within reason. So, the 'reason' would differ between families.....?
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gumtree
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Seed
Posts: 49
Yes TABSP I read the thread about identifying what we do at home.
Sam I know my original post was judgemental. that is how I am seeing it at the moment I suppose, I feel like people think I am lame in some areas of parenting and I am questioning whether this is because I'm being sensitive to the kids, or lame!
As for the 60 minutes show, maybe that was it, i dunno, is supose there havent been that many on 'radical' parenting.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
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Seedling
Posts: 373
I'm lame.. my teen says see ya.. off to hang out with a guy.. see you later.. and I nod smile and say.. be safe.. love you..bye. (she does this at 9pm)
It may seem "lame" to parents who like to control and monitor every action their teenager makes.. and deep down I wish I could also, I wish she could just choose to do whatever I want her to, but that's not parenting really, it's more of owning someone, which I don't.
Not sure why it's "radical" to allow freedom in children.. it's normal in some parts of the world.. it's only westerners who see it as radical.
As far as making choices for our children, when they are young and don't realize things like, it's not safe to play on the HWY in peak hour traffic etc if we didn't make the choice to step in and redirect, our children would all be killed by the age of 3 LOL
It's not making choices for them, it's redirection. When they are old enough to understand the dangers then it's up to them to decide if they are going to take risks. They need to be told of them, that's our duty to them as parents, but we have to step back and allow them to decide for themselves.
Most of the time they choose wisely. Its' the children who have been held back and had choices made for them their whole lives, who become rebellious and choose to do the unhealthy risky stuff.
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arunaway
July 30, 2008, 10:20pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 123
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
I was using the ICE example very narrowly, I know, but I guess I coming from trying to say about drawing the line in a different place: presumably you wouldn't have it in your home as an option for your children to try if they wished? The same maybe with regards to various other prescription and recreational drugs? Maybe the same as fire arms. I don't know your beliefs or boundaries, so I'm guessing, using examples, not assuming.
if my children as they got older said they wanted to try ICE or some other 'hard' drug, my first reaction (hopefully) would not be "no".
It would be trying to understand the need behind it... experimentation? exploration? peer acceptance? fun? letting go of control? etc etc..
i would discuss ask about ICE and encourage them to research it as well as try to encourage an awareness of their needs behind it to see if there were other options possible.
I might strongly recommend against its use and explain why.
If they still wanted to use it I would definitely want them to do it in my home! And i would let them know i accept and love them just the same so they could still talk to me about it and get my support around it... particularly if it developed into an addiction or had some other major impacts. Home is the best place for that to take place IMO.
i dont expect to hit this challenge for a while, if at all, given the young ages of my kids, but for me the trust approach still applies on the biggies.
(general disclaimer – i appreciate that this is a personal thing and am not suggesting you try this at home if its not your thing)
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:27pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
Jessica tried ecstasy a couple of months ago at a party.
She got scared and phoned me to come and get her. She could have hidden it from me like most kids do, out of fear of being "punished" or upsetting me, or worrying me etc
but she knows that the most important thing is that she feels safe.. she feels safest at home
I did look after her to make sure she was ok, then the next day I told her it may be safer to try that sort of crap at home, because next time I may not be able to get to her in time and she can't expect her friends to call the ambos and be honest with them about what she's taken.
She agreed and is yet to try anything else.
She's not too keen on drugs, all her friends raved about it so she was curious and tried it. She was bummed that it wasn't all they made it out to be and was even more bummed at the anxiety attack it caused. She's happy having a natural high and has the freedom to do that, so has no desire for drugs.. thank goddess LOL
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artymama
July 30, 2008, 10:29pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Location: A tiny house on a busy street
Quoted Text
Its' the children who have been held back and had choices made for them their whole lives, who become rebellious and choose to do the unhealthy risky stuff.
this is a VERY generalised statement. I was entrenched in drug culture during my teens and my best friend had complete 'freedom' and chose to be do lots of stuff that would be considered risky and unhealthy. I know people whose 'freedom' given to them by their folks actually meant they felt uncared for. I don't think it's ever so black and white as 'give them freedom and they'll regulate themselves and make wise decisions' and 'put in boundaries and they'll rebel against you and not be able to regulate themselves'. Our western lives are so much more complex than that.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:33pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
There is a fine line between freedom to make choices and parents who don't show any concern over their choices.
I always told her when I was worried and still do.
She wasn't allowed to go out at all hours of the night till she was 16 and thought I was the strictest mother in the universe LOL
As I said it's all about ages and stages.. I wouldn't let Aiden play on a HWY and I wouldn't let a 13 year old go and party and and get herself around town without knowing where she is..unlike alot of her friends parents who were too busy smoking bongs and having dinner parties to give a crap where their kids were.
I always know where she is and I always call her if it's getting late and I am worried.
I trust her and she trusts me.
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:39pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
I will also add that when she was 14 she had 2 friends come over to stay the night and they got bored at around 8pm and decided to leave and catch a train.
I wouldn't let them leave the house until I spoke to their parents and when I did neither of the parents seem to give a crap. I told them I wouldn't let them leave unless they were picked up.
They were pissed off but did it.. I interrupted something more important me thinks.
There is huge difference between freedom and not caring.
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arunaway
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Sprout
Posts: 123
Quoted Text
I know people whose 'freedom' given to them by their folks actually meant they felt uncared for
i think raises a useful distinction.
Radical Unschooling is big on finding a "yes" rather than applying limits/ boundaries and enforcing a "no" etc..
but there are different varieties of "yes" which RU ones get mistaken for.
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
my line about RU is that its the most hands on way to be hands off.
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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kali
July 30, 2008, 10:58pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
Quoted from arunaway
i think raises a useful distinction.
Radical Unschooling is big on finding a "yes" rather than applying limits/ boundaries and enforcing a "no" etc..
but there are different varieties of "yes" which RU ones get mistaken for.
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
my line about RU is that its the most hands on way to be hands off.
arun
Yep yeppity yeppers LOL
I learned the hard way. I stopped Jessica from going out, so she snuck out and put herself at risk. I found out she had been sneeking out of the window at 3am to go driving with a 23 year old who was giving her pot. She had lied to him and said she was 19 and he believed her. (she was 14 at the time)
Now she has the freedom, I know where she is and she isn't afraid of telling me. If she gets into a bit of trouble or feels unsafe, she contacts me without fear of my reaction. She's making wiser choices because I am allowing her to actually CHOOSE
She knows I will drop what I am doing and go to her and she asks more questions about life than you can imagine, because she wants to know the risks before getting in danger.
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Marijo
July 30, 2008, 11:18pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 202
Location: Spain, planning to return to Australia
Very inspired by your words, Arun. I fully agree with what you say. I hope I can take it to practice when the time comes...
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arunaway
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Sprout
Posts: 123
Quoted from Marijo
I hope I can take it to practice when the time comes...
so do i!
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
July 31, 2008, 8:07am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
Posts: 541
QUOTE:" Not sure why it's "radical" to allow freedom in children.. it's normal in some parts of the world.. it's only westerners who see it as radical."
Whilst it's probably true that, in most places in the world, children run after their mothers and that it's only Western mothers who are seen running after their children, I would still say that the freedom still has boundaries, and is also much easier to achieve within the context of some kind of tribe or at least strong community life, where similar goals, based on survival, are shared, and there's lots of people looking out for the children and young people.
Many tribal people have hugely sophisticated and integral sets of rules and regulations, many applying to different ages and stages of growing up. It's more that the children and young people respect their tribe/community so deeply that it simply wouldn't occur to them to blatantly break those rules.
They are definitely not 'allowed freedom' and some would have less than our children certainly - by early teens - because their workload (even if they see 'work' in different ways to us, and some don't even have a word for 'work') is so high.
QUOTE:"if my children as they got older said they wanted to try ICE or some other 'hard' drug, my first reaction (hopefully) would not be "no"."
On the understanding that the ICE example isn't the best, Arun, you still state "as they got older"....therefore, you are, as a parent, putting some kind of (age) limit on it...
QUOTE:"we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive."
I know this, but I like how concisely it's been put here
'Just A Mother': Birth & Earth Activist, Lactivist & Mother/Baby Intactivist - & We'Moon Life Learning Alongside 8 Children & DP & You
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Beatrice
July 31, 2008, 8:38am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Unreal Unschooler
Sapling
Posts: 519
Interesting read, Arun My current plan for dealing with this issue is "But my daughter will never do drugs!" Possibly I should work on adding a little more nuance to that, though... Actually, my Cunning Plan for ParentingTM focusses on building relationships above all else, a strategy which I am hoping will pay off in the teenage years, especially since I am most definitely in the category of "Do as I say don't do as I did" when it comes to just about everything stupid one can do as a teenager
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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arunaway
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Sprout
Posts: 123
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
On the understanding that the ICE example isn't the best, Arun, you still state "as they got older"....therefore, you are, as a parent, putting some kind of (age) limit on it...
i wrote 'as they get older' mainly because i did not seriously expect a 2 year old or 6 year old to ask for hard drugs with any level of commitment.
if they did... i think a whole bunch of broader questions would surface.
i think the principle still stands, the age appropriate language still varies.
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
July 31, 2008, 9:32am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
Posts: 541
I have to say I'm still glad drugs, particularly alcohol, legal or otherwise, have not been an issue to date, even though being at a particularly funky, artistic college and moving in punk circles and events has given my 17-year-old DS ample opportunity.
Beatrice, I think the general line I've heard amongst older 'AP' families and home ed parents is that it's not so much that your children won't do drugs ~ it's just that they'll tell you about it !!!
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Beatrice
July 31, 2008, 9:36am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Unreal Unschooler
Sapling
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Ah, the mixed blessing Considering how much crap I did to myself and how much effort I invested in hiding it from my parents, I reckon I'll take openness as a positive though The idea of my daughter putting herself in some of the situations I ended up in is hair raising (and heart breaking).
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
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Sapling
Posts: 541
Yep, but your daughter isn't you XXX
And you didn't have you as a mumma XXX
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gumtree
July 31, 2008, 12:41pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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Hmmm Sitting back taking it all in.
Thanks for giving me lots to think about.
I saw an interview with a guy who was a homeless cocaine addict, living under a railway station platfom in america, who ended upbeing some really recognised writer. He said the problem with drug education is that parents don't say that the drugs might and probably will make you feel great when you start taking them. Hiding this part of the experience and focusing on the hangovers, addictions, side effects of drug taking just makes the teen think that their parents have been lying to them when they have a positive experience on drugs.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
July 31, 2008, 6:50pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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gumtree that's absurd it's obvious they make people feel good otherwise they wouldn't bother taking them. If someone goes to take drugs not realizing that they make you feel good, then that person has issews
Jess found the opposite, she expected it to feel great but it wasn't how she imagined. I don't make a huge deal out of the drug thing anyway, she's seen enough nuff nuff pot head druggies in her life to know what they do to your life. The ones she has seen live in caravans in peoples backyards, don't have jobs and spend their entire lives searching for drugs and taking them. Those people turned her off.. I'm glad i exsposed her to those people, they saved her going and learning the hard way.
Oh and her father (my X) is a prime example of drug fucked smack addict... she finds it disgusting and won't go down that path.
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gumtree
July 31, 2008, 9:00pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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Yeh I suppose it does seem really stupid now you say that.
Although in my experience, taking drugs can be a choice not because it is a positive experience, but because it is an act of rebellion and self destruction, from the beginning.
Mama to 3 little people, born 04, 06 and 08. We're already home-learning but having doubts.
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kali
July 31, 2008, 9:18pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Quoted from gumtree
Although in my experience, taking drugs can be a choice not because it is a positive experience, but because it is an act of rebellion and self destruction, from the beginning.
Yep like I said in a previous post, people who are controlled and never given the freedom to make choices, rebel later in life.
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artymama
August 1, 2008, 2:02am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 408
Location: A tiny house on a busy street
Quoted Text
we are not talking about the sort that fundamentally compromise our own needs or make our needs subservient , so its not 'submissive parenting' (usually called permissive parenting).
we are not talking about the sort that comes from a place of not caring and not providing love/ support/ guidance, so its not 'unparenting' (basically being negligent)
its a yes that comes from a place of trust, love, support and care. IMO Its also being very proactive.
I know. I think you are assuming that the parents I speak of weren't doing that......it's pretty presumptuous..... 'because it didn't work out for them they musn't have been coming from 'this' place....'
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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artymama
August 1, 2008, 2:06am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Quoted Text
Yep like I said in a previous post, people who are controlled and never given the freedom to make choices, rebel later in life.
I'm not a believer in control at all, but you're making really generalised statements here Kali that are not really true. Other friends I knew....(I played in lots of different circles during my teen years!).....had seemingly very controlled upbringings yet there some of the happiest people I know who never rebelled. I definitely don't think that control and punishment are any kind of answer but I also don't think that 'freedom = no rebellion' and 'control = rebellion' in every single instance. It can go either way with both.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
free speech is in the hands of the controller
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Beatrice
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Unreal Unschooler
Sapling
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I think it depends a lot on personality type (and gender). My upbringing and DH's were fairly similar yet I responded in the classic way Kali suggests, and DH just hung out with his friends, got into computers, never took drugs or touched alcohol or cigarettes, and started out in relationships which weren't always wonderful but certainly weren't all dysfunctional and a form of self-abuse. My mother and his both do the classic martyr thing as a way to control through guilt, but he can shrug it off and go Eh, whereas it ties me in knots.
Homeschooling mama to B (7/97), K (3/05) and H (11/07)
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child." - George Bernard Shaw
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valleymama
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Sprout
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mmmm....drug taking is not something that i would really like my kids doing while they are still growing, due to the possible side effects on the brain, nervous system etc. However, I do believe there is such a thing as responsible recreational drug use (without dependance or addiction, which is of course unhealthy and detrimental). Just as there are many risky recreational activites in life, it is a personal choice if one chooses to particpate. I would like to think if my (adult) children were considering taking a drug for this purpose, that they would be able to do so in a fully informed way. Thus i plan to keep on open line of communication about the subject, so that when it arises in the future, my kids won't feel they have to hide it from me as i did from my parents
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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valleymama
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Sprout
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ps I am not talking about the hard, super-addictive drugs
homebirthing, home educating mum to 3 free range learners
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kali
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Seedling
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Quoted from valleymama
However, I do believe there is such a thing as responsible recreational drug use (without dependance or addiction, which is of course unhealthy and detrimental). Just as there are many risky recreational activites in life, it is a personal choice if one chooses to particpate. I would like to think if my (adult) children were considering taking a drug for this purpose, that they would be able to do so in a fully informed way. Thus i plan to keep on open line of communication about the subject, so that when it arises in the future, my kids won't feel they have to hide it from me as i did from my parents
I agree
What urks me is that parents seem fine with letting their kids drink alcohol which is just as.. or even more risky than some soft drugs.
They are fine with them drinking at the same time as they become licenced drivers then wonder why driving is such a risky activity.
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Sam
August 1, 2008, 11:38am Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
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Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
If you would not chose to have an array of mind/body altering (yes, taking into account that everyone reacts differently) substances available in your home, thus making choices on behalf of your children, you will have an understanding of what I mean: we are simply defining mind/body altering substances differently and drawing a line in a slightly different place, but a line nonetheless.
We do have dangerous substances in the house...toxic drugs and deadly chemicals. The kids and adults alike choose not to ingest them unsafely).
None of us here have ever wanted real guns in the house but my son did want to try shooting so we arranged for him to go on holidays to a friend who lives in the country where he got to play with guns.
The drug issue isn't hypothetical in this house. I agree with Arun that ideally I'd love to have any drug use under my roof, however, with young children in the home this isn't ideal. In reality my son isn't doing drugs on his own but with friends so for me to have him use drugs here would mean him bringing the entire party here and TBO I'd rather not. I am happy that my son hangs out with friends he can trust. I am happy that he is good at keeping himself safe despite not always being in the safest environment. It would be naive of me to believe I know where he is and who he is with and what he is doing at all times. I get told a lot but I don't know all that goes on and what I do know I often find out after the fact.
Quoted from ThirdArmBabySlingProject
When pushed before on other threads surrounding this topic, the general conclusion from those identifying as RU appeared to be that there were no limits - within reason. So, the 'reason' would differ between families.....?
The limits seem to be fairly consistent amongst RU families....basically respecting the rights of others. That's vague I know but it's just the usual stuff you would expect - not being violent, not stealing or damaging other people's property etc.
Sam
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mer
August 1, 2008, 7:55pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
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Mind if I jump in this discussion?
I was reading along and formulating responses in my head, but Arun beat me to it with everything I wanted to say!
About the drugs - I don't think what gumtree said is so absurd - yes we all know drugs make you feel good, but if a parent ignores that fact in discussions with kids, I feel the kids will think the parents are just clueless, and their advice becomes irrelevant to the kids. If I had thought my parents knew anything about the "good" side of drugs I might have heeded their advice, but I thought they were just coming from their usual authoritarian place, that they just didn't understand the value of the high so had no idea about how to weigh up the pros and cons.
I hope it never comes down to it but I would do similarly to Arun with my kids (at any age ). However I would love to see figures on the percentage of unschooled kids who use drugs compared to schooled kids.
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mer
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Seed
Posts: 13
And on "limits' yeah our limits are that others are not hurt nor possessions destroyed. Others' feelings and convenience comes into it too. If someone wants a biscuit and there are none in the house I am not about to drive to the shops and get one unless I am feeling that is OK for me at that moment.
I think a lot of people think RU is a free-for-all for the kids at any expense, but we do talk endlessly about the results of this or that, why it might not be a good idea to do something. However it is just information-sharing followed by "well it's up to you", (in a nice way, not spoken with cat's bum).
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Gullygirl
August 1, 2008, 8:06pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Happy To Be A Freak!
Seedling
Posts: 262
Location: somewhere beautiful
I don't think it sounds stupid at all gumtree, and I think it is a really good point.
mama to a 4yr old boy
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kali
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Seedling
Posts: 373
I didn't say gumtree was stupid she posted about something she heard someone else say anyway.. and I still think it's absurd
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artemis of the eucalypts
August 1, 2008, 8:54pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 360
Location: Starting at the very beginning
I've been thinking of this topic alot. We dont consider ourselves as RU'ers. We have boundaries around t.v and addictive non-foods. I have been thinking of all the people I know who have grown up. I'd say none of us come from RU backgrounds, and all of us come from pretty conventional families in that there was no AP in the early years. However in quite a few families there was unconditional love and respect and trust. Perhaps not the kind of trust that RU'ers are talking about as there were rules around alot of things, however the children growing up were felt respected and loved by their parents.
The examples I can give most clearly were Aby and I. I grew up with physical and verbal punsihments. We had rules around telly in as much as we had to be in bed by 830 on a school night, and were never allowed to watch anything greater than a pg rating. We were forced to eat food we didnt like, forced to clean our plates, had fairly free range on lollies and junk....
Aby never had any phyiscal punishment, but was yelled at, they had similar rules arround the telly, but more relaxed than our house I think. Food wasnt forced or restricted in their home, but there wasnt loads to go round, so it was 1st in best dressed, and they ate similar junk to me growing up......
The difference was that Aby felt she had huge ammounts of love and respect from her parents. I never felt that. Neither Aby nor her siblings have rebelled. Both my brother and I did, and I believe my brother at age 31 is still rebelling
From a point of control, I feel both our famililies were pretty similar. We both had freedom to a certain extent around clothing, style, friendships etc, however I have a background of being abused, Aby doesnt. I also have a background of having alcoholic stepfathers....Aby doesnt. My issues around control stem from these incidents in my childhood, she has no such issues.
So I guess my long winded point is that perhaps it is not how much freedom a child has, but how much love and respect and trust they feel they have within the boundaries of their life?????
R a i n b o w mumma to 2 natural learners dd '03 and ds '07
"...unfree education results in life that cannot be lived fully...... only the head is educated. If the emotions are permitted to be really free, the intelect will look after itself" A. S Neill
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kali
August 1, 2008, 9:36pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
Quoted from artemis of the eucalypts
So I guess my long winded point is that perhaps it is not how much freedom a child has, but how much love and respect and trust they feel they have within the boundaries of their life?????
yes AOTE you are right and I love the way you put it. Beautiful!!!
. If you repsect someone you don't force expectations on them. There has to be boundries put in place for saftey reasons when children are too young to understand, and there needs to be rules of the house to keep the house peacefull.. but once a person is old enough to understand the consequences of their actions, they have the right to make their own choices and we sholdn't stand in their way. The more trust your put in a person the more they trust you and most importantly, themselves.
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Sam
August 2, 2008, 3:13pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 303
I kind of see it from another perspective. I feel that it's not so much that I am allowing a child freedom but that I don't unnecessarily interfere with their lives. I tend to step in only if it becomes necessary. So, for example, I haven't taught my kids to walk, I haven't taught my two "always unschooled" kids to read, I see they know when they need to sleep and eat and what they need to wear etc. However, if my child indicated they needed help or if it became apparent that they did need assistance then I would step in at that point. So if my child had physical difficulties and needed help to walk I would do that but only if it was necessary not as par for the course. Likewise, I don't regulate bedtimes or tv viewing or try to make my kids learn to write and I don't do a whole lot of things that I might, that many parents do, but I would if I saw that my input was needed.
Sam
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Aeron
August 2, 2008, 3:36pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 66
What a great discussion. I am having a bit of a hard time feeling comfortable with some choices lately. I am not a terribly confident person anyway, so I question my decisions constantly!
Sorry if this does not seem the right place for my questions, it just seemed like a good place while it was being discussed anyway.
One of my issues is tv. I have tried for I guess a month to not restrict my 3 year old's tv viewing. Actually, I suppose I never have restricted tv, it's just that in the last month or two the number of hours have been increasing rapidly, to where the tv might be on all day sometimes. I wonder if it is a winter thing.
What do others do about the *type* of tv your kids watch? We have borrowed some things from the library that I consider extremely dodgey. I try to explain to dd that I do not like the way they speak to each other, I don't believe they are being respectful of other people. I really can't think of other ways of explaining it. She just says 'Maybe not Mum!', one of her favourite phrases .
The movie I am thinking specifically of is a 'My Little Ponies' one. I thought it would be all fluff, cute and lovely. There are witches who are horrible to each other. A mother witch who shouts at her kids, kicks them down stairs, and then they all try to wipe out the whole of the pony kingdom!
And then if she is watching tv in the afternoons, there are the kids shows that are made for older kids. I don't want to tell her they are for older kids, but I don't know what else to say. They deal with kids being nasty to each other, violence, teenagers wearing makeup, etc. and this is all on the ABC. I sound like such a prude!
Apologies if this is a blab and not really appropriate for this forum. I am having a really horrible day so my judgement might be a bit off! And I might be a bit ranty! But bugger it, I'm going to post anyway .
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ThirdArmBabySlingProject
August 2, 2008, 4:06pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sapling
Posts: 541
Aeron, have you seen this thread yet?
If not, check it out
http://www.joyouslearning.info/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1213328533/
'Just A Mother': Birth & Earth Activist, Lactivist & Mother/Baby Intactivist - & We'Moon Life Learning Alongside 8 Children & DP & You
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arunaway
August 2, 2008, 7:31pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 123
we dont actually have a tv. We have several portable dvd players, one of which belongs to dd (6yrs) and she often uses in her bedroom. We have lots of dvds and go to the dvds shop and "cheap arse tuesdays" so see a range of stuff.
Actually i am keen to get a tv because dd asked for one a few months ago and because id like to play some games with her using it, however my dp is extremely anti tv... dd has not asked for it since so the subject has gone into the background but id expect it to come up again.
In terms of what they watch – dd chooses her own dvds but is very sensitive to what she calls "scarey" which is a very broad definition. I got her walt disney's brother bear the other day and she was upset with me! So she usually selects stuff with a "G" rating. She tends to avoid older type programs.
Ds (2yrs) gets bored by the screen unless its Dora. He went through a bob stage, then postman pat but right now when he does watch wants to see Dora.
i know what you mean aeron, about concern over the characters or relationships portrayed in some shows. I even found this in books id read, especially "old classics".
I now try to limit my commentary now by either asking a (real) question about what dd thinks about it or explain how it makes me feel. I found such discussions easier as she got older. Also trying to have confidence in her ability to look at such things in the context of the loving, respectful relationship we provided.
If they are watching something im not so sure about i try to:
- watch with them
- ask them how they are going (try to encourage self awareness about such stuff)
- on occasion invite them to do something else with me
i personally also feel that if the screen is on a lot for a week or so, particularly if they are looking bored and "droopy", then its probably a sign for me that i need to make the environment or options more interesting. I dont worry so much if its just a few days or during cold, wet periods and they are looking engaged by what they are watching... but it can be a good kick up the butt to consider, as dd often says, "what can we do that is totally new?"
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
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Aeron
August 2, 2008, 8:47pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Sprout
Posts: 66
Hi TABSP, No I had not seen that. Now I have a lot of reading to do .
Arun, Thanks for that. You're definitely right about it being a time when I need to get other stuff organised. I can't seem to find anything to drag her interest away. But I will keep trying, in between moments when she is insisting I watch the Wiggles for the 3rd time in a row!
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arunaway
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Sprout
Posts: 123
ds has not watched much recently at all, but at one stage when i felt he was 'a bit stuck' several weeks ago i simply pulled out a bunch of puzzles and started playing with them next to him.
Other times when he really is enjoying watching it can be wonderful to simply join in and get into his space. I find with me there he becomes much more animated and interactive, wanting to point out things or comment more.
i guess it will vary from child to child though...
arun
note to self re sig file - don't forget to insert a wise, insightful but witty and short quote from someone here. One that will make people laugh but also leave them with questions to dwell on. That will cut through the crap to the core issues. And most importantly one that will generally make me look really interesting and smart.
http://www.theparentingpit.com
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Chrissy
August 2, 2008, 9:53pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seed
Posts: 38
Lately DD 6 and I have been connecting watching the program 'so you think you can dance'. She is very into dance and runs around the house shouting "I made it to Vegas!!!" in the ad breaks (which we mute down or take the opportuntiy to talk about marketing etc). I have really relaxed about stuff like that over the last few years and it is so lovely to let the world in without too much fear around it. (I know, your cringing )
Our kids toatlly regulate their own screen time and watch max an hour or a whole movie daily and sometimes only that much per week. Neither would prefer TV to doing something fun. JJ can only watch for around 20 mins before he goes out to bounce on the trampoline.
As we share a TV/DVD and only have one computer it means often negotiation with other family members.
http://thewonderfulplace.blogspot.com/
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kali
August 2, 2008, 10:00pm Quote Quote Delete Delete Modify Modify Report to Moderator Report to Moderator
Seedling
Posts: 373
My 2 and a half year old loves so you think you can dance. He dances while it's on so I always miss it because I'm too busy watching him
He's a singer too, quite the wee entertainer :
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